Why learn to Navigate?
- Thread starter Levin
- Start date
- Status
kloudie--saints are ok---they might just do the deed...LOL.....need to LOL--what is it a 47 yr hunger??????? lol------them navigating into super bowl has been an adventure LOL......but they dont need gps...or paper--LOL.....nor sextant.....
(had to keep on topic LOL)
(had to keep on topic LOL)
There was that SOG SWT discussion last week. Unless I already mentioned that five pages ago...
As for the pilotage statements... There is something satisfying about being in sight of land, taking three bearings off blinking lights and 2 min later knowing where I am on paper. Rather than telling me I am at what ever N/S, what ever E/W. 25 years ago (no GPS) but had LORAN (still needed paper). I plotted a course from Rochester to Toronto (time, distance, heading) wanted to hit the shipping lanes at dawn (to see the BIG BOATS in day light). We left in moderate fog and storms (not bad ones). All went well, the RADAR failed, good idea to have daylight in the shipping lanes. When we took bearings on Canada we were within 3 miles of the intended destination, with a GPS, you cannot do this. I still have paper charts, compass, binocular compass and hand held as well. I also have a GPS and chart plotter (laptop tied into a puck). My stomping ground is small, always in the sight of land (small boat, BIG NASTY LAKE). But, I have pecker tracks on my GPS (WAAS) that if I followed them home I would end up on the break wall on occasion. GPS is great but not perfect. Just another tool to use, as is "Old School Navigation". Learn how to use it. Makes for good conversation, or a way to escape family, when planning your next trip. Sorry sweetie, I need to go and plot our course now; I'll let you finish packing the boat for tomorrow.
Current GPS sats are near end of life
And the USAF is several years behind in launching new sats. In fact, I have read in other places, that if as little as two more birds fail in 2010, the constallation could lose 24x7 coverage in some areas, and degraded service (read that as compromised accuracy) in others.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/may/19/gps-close-to-breakdown
It doesn't take much time and effort to learn to use pencil and chart. If you sail with friends or family, you have a responsibility to keep them safe in ANY scenario. My advice is to learn to navigate. Following a chartplotter is not navigating, its more like following bread crumbs
And the USAF is several years behind in launching new sats. In fact, I have read in other places, that if as little as two more birds fail in 2010, the constallation could lose 24x7 coverage in some areas, and degraded service (read that as compromised accuracy) in others.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/may/19/gps-close-to-breakdown
It doesn't take much time and effort to learn to use pencil and chart. If you sail with friends or family, you have a responsibility to keep them safe in ANY scenario. My advice is to learn to navigate. Following a chartplotter is not navigating, its more like following bread crumbs
And some of us even "survived" navigating in FOG well before the advent of even Loran..
Thinking further....
It may not be the actual skills, but the mindset and attitude. Different choices, and decisions.
Those who make the effort to learn traditional methods probably also tend to be able to take care of themselves in other ways. Rather than rely upon others.
I'm reminded of something from my flying days.
Two guys made the same quite short trip (Lancaster, PA to York, PA) at the same time.
One guy was the "gotta have the best", and electronics out the wazoo.
He came into the office with a thrilling story of how he just flew through a thunderstorm. Nasty turbulence and all.
The other, a good old traditionalist. His story?
"Thunderstorm? Oh yeah, I saw that and went around it."
It may not be the actual skills, but the mindset and attitude. Different choices, and decisions.
Those who make the effort to learn traditional methods probably also tend to be able to take care of themselves in other ways. Rather than rely upon others.
I'm reminded of something from my flying days.
Two guys made the same quite short trip (Lancaster, PA to York, PA) at the same time.
One guy was the "gotta have the best", and electronics out the wazoo.
He came into the office with a thrilling story of how he just flew through a thunderstorm. Nasty turbulence and all.
The other, a good old traditionalist. His story?
"Thunderstorm? Oh yeah, I saw that and went around it."
To answer my earlier question about great circle sailing with a gps. The answer is it does give headings for great circle sailing. I entered Lisbon as a destination and It came back with distance and a heading of 068 true. I am at 39 north and Lisbon is about 30 north. So when I leave Cape May I sail ENE for the first 24 hours and then take another reading from that position.
Re: "it is highly unlikely that both of the GPSs are going to fail"
One other thing to note, there are numerousreefs and shoals in the middle of the Pacific that have never been updated with precise GPS coordinates. You will NEVER see these on your chartplotter unless you are zoomed "IN" to the max. BUT they are clearly marked on a chart.
Same thing happened to me a few years back. All my electronics were fried, except my sat phone (which I keep in a Faraday safe for that very reason). Even my "spare" gps that was still "new in the box" was damaged.
One other thing to note, there are numerousreefs and shoals in the middle of the Pacific that have never been updated with precise GPS coordinates. You will NEVER see these on your chartplotter unless you are zoomed "IN" to the max. BUT they are clearly marked on a chart.
Even if you navigate strictly by GPS It seems very Little price to pay for the insurance of having a chart and a few plotting tools aboard. Just every 20 or 30 minutes (or choose time) write down your current time heading and GPS position. It doesn't take but a few seconds. If suddenly you loose all your electronics you can just pull out the the chart and plot your way from your last known position.
If you are committed to the GPS...
If you see that the GPS seems to fill all of your needs, what can I offer from the paper, and compass technology that would increase your enjoyment and safety?
A plotting GPS is basically a "small picture" device, even if you have a big screen. A paper chart shows a big picture. It shows alternatives and issues that you may never see on the GPS. It has notes that are often missing, or only seen when you are on top of the feature with the GPS.
You can change a chart, adding new info, or experiences yourself with a pencil in a way that you will see the next time through an area. GPS's are only updated when you pay for the upgrade, while notices to mariners are available in real time.
As I said before, plotting a planned route with a pencil on paper will focus your attention on relevant details in a very different way from the GPS.
Piloting - coastal navigation - skills teach you how to appreciate your surroundings with your own eyes, ears, and touch. It teaches you and your crew to use these powerful tools to form a joint appreciation of your situation. The GPS is wonderful, but you do have to translate the picture from the little screen to the world you see in order to navigate your boat. Dead reckoning, lines of bearing, ranges, and recording fixes on your chart will teach you new, fun, and useful things about the world you see.
Yes, you can have your GPS stand anchor watch for you, if your batteries last that long. But the fastest and most accurate way to tell if your anchor is dragging is to identify a range of two objects ashore. A quick glance will then assure you that all is well, or that more investigation is needed.
If you invest a little in learning these skills, you will then have a back-up if the unexpected happens, and your GPS and its backups are not working. And I hope I have made the point that that investment will expand your view of the world you sail in, and your enjoyment of this wonderful pasttime.
If you see that the GPS seems to fill all of your needs, what can I offer from the paper, and compass technology that would increase your enjoyment and safety?
A plotting GPS is basically a "small picture" device, even if you have a big screen. A paper chart shows a big picture. It shows alternatives and issues that you may never see on the GPS. It has notes that are often missing, or only seen when you are on top of the feature with the GPS.
You can change a chart, adding new info, or experiences yourself with a pencil in a way that you will see the next time through an area. GPS's are only updated when you pay for the upgrade, while notices to mariners are available in real time.
As I said before, plotting a planned route with a pencil on paper will focus your attention on relevant details in a very different way from the GPS.
Piloting - coastal navigation - skills teach you how to appreciate your surroundings with your own eyes, ears, and touch. It teaches you and your crew to use these powerful tools to form a joint appreciation of your situation. The GPS is wonderful, but you do have to translate the picture from the little screen to the world you see in order to navigate your boat. Dead reckoning, lines of bearing, ranges, and recording fixes on your chart will teach you new, fun, and useful things about the world you see.
Yes, you can have your GPS stand anchor watch for you, if your batteries last that long. But the fastest and most accurate way to tell if your anchor is dragging is to identify a range of two objects ashore. A quick glance will then assure you that all is well, or that more investigation is needed.
If you invest a little in learning these skills, you will then have a back-up if the unexpected happens, and your GPS and its backups are not working. And I hope I have made the point that that investment will expand your view of the world you sail in, and your enjoyment of this wonderful pasttime.
funny thing about knowing how to take a bearing--i saved a friend's ass when his prop shaft uncoupled on him while underway with engine running--lol--wasnt fun --he had to go below and affix it so as to not lose it while we above decks avoided othe r boats--was end of the americas cup racing 1995--lol---if i hadnt been taking bearings he would never have known his shaft uncoupled and would have had a huge repair bill for replacement of prop and shaft--- some old fashioned stuff is most important to know--lol----the use of lead lines and everything is really helpful--gps depth seems to go out of function just when needed most---lol......is something to consider.....
Stirred up a hornets nest
Hello all...
Seems I stirred up a hornets nest with this one (Truth in advertising: I'm sure that's what I intended when I started this thread). But even still I never imagined people would get so upset and angry about this one.
Now for the record I've never been one to listen when people tell me: "You'll shoot your eye out". Now that doesn't mean I haven't learned the hard way sometimes, just that if I listened to everyone telling me what can't be done I would have never gotten into sailing in the first place. When I entered the world of sailing I was moving across the country, planing to buy a boat without any real boating experience what so ever, and came to this site looking for advice... and quite a few people told me I was crazy and that what I was proposing couldn't be done.
Anyway luckily I didn't listen... but I did take the advice of those who seemed to have something worthwhile to say besides how quickly I would be shooting out my eye. From this discussion what I've realized is that at some point I will need a Faraday safe if I ever sail beyond the waters of SoCal. I won't get one for around here because lightning is so rare here that it isn't probably worth being concerned about. Perhaps at some point I'll also pick up some charts, because it can't hurt to have them aboard... but I don't see myself trying to plot a course.
I guess we all have to find our comfort level, and right now I'm very comfortable with GPS alone. If that means I'll shoot my eye out so be it... my way might not be for everyone but it has worked for me so far.
Take care,
-Levin
Hello all...
Seems I stirred up a hornets nest with this one (Truth in advertising: I'm sure that's what I intended when I started this thread). But even still I never imagined people would get so upset and angry about this one.
Now for the record I've never been one to listen when people tell me: "You'll shoot your eye out". Now that doesn't mean I haven't learned the hard way sometimes, just that if I listened to everyone telling me what can't be done I would have never gotten into sailing in the first place. When I entered the world of sailing I was moving across the country, planing to buy a boat without any real boating experience what so ever, and came to this site looking for advice... and quite a few people told me I was crazy and that what I was proposing couldn't be done.
Anyway luckily I didn't listen... but I did take the advice of those who seemed to have something worthwhile to say besides how quickly I would be shooting out my eye. From this discussion what I've realized is that at some point I will need a Faraday safe if I ever sail beyond the waters of SoCal. I won't get one for around here because lightning is so rare here that it isn't probably worth being concerned about. Perhaps at some point I'll also pick up some charts, because it can't hurt to have them aboard... but I don't see myself trying to plot a course.
I guess we all have to find our comfort level, and right now I'm very comfortable with GPS alone. If that means I'll shoot my eye out so be it... my way might not be for everyone but it has worked for me so far.
Take care,
-Levin
No it can't hurt, so good for you :dance:.
How exactly do you use the GPS now? I'm interested. Do you put in waypoints? Do you set it so you know where your started from? Do you just look at the map on the screen and see where it says you are? Do you have any maps/charts loaded into it other than the base map that comes with it that doesn't depict shore lines accurately at all? Exactly which GPS units do you carry?
Just curious,
Sum
Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID
Our Mac Pages
Mac Links
Who's angry?
Levin, we're all really glad you're now a sailor and a member of this group. Your contributions, both in your questions and your answers, and your participation has been very helpful over the course of time you've been with us here.
I believe what you may misinterpret as anger is more of what I feel is concern for your safety from your "internet and online friends."
We just want you, and others who have read and/or contributed to this discussion, to be as safe as you and they can be.
Beyond that earlier quoted phrase that I've been known to use some time, I'd add:
"We can make all the suggestion in the world in response to a question or a topic, but we can't "make" you do anything you choose not to do."
I've taken this approach with many on our C34 Forum who choose, for instance, to not upgrade their wiring harness if they still have a cockpit ammeter (a real fire hazard which has also come up on this forum), or the M25 engine alternator bracket replacement. That's why fellow C34 skippers suggested, and we began, our "Critical Upgrades: Do This or Else" topic: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html Many of those ideas apply to other manufacturer's boats with the same engines and/or systems.
Be safe, keep smilin' And keep comin' back.
Levin, we're all really glad you're now a sailor and a member of this group. Your contributions, both in your questions and your answers, and your participation has been very helpful over the course of time you've been with us here.
I believe what you may misinterpret as anger is more of what I feel is concern for your safety from your "internet and online friends."
We just want you, and others who have read and/or contributed to this discussion, to be as safe as you and they can be.
Beyond that earlier quoted phrase that I've been known to use some time
, I'd add: "We can make all the suggestion in the world in response to a question or a topic, but we can't "make" you do anything you choose not to do."
I've taken this approach with many on our C34 Forum who choose, for instance, to not upgrade their wiring harness if they still have a cockpit ammeter (a real fire hazard which has also come up on this forum), or the M25 engine alternator bracket replacement. That's why fellow C34 skippers suggested, and we began, our "Critical Upgrades: Do This or Else" topic: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html Many of those ideas apply to other manufacturer's boats with the same engines and/or systems.
Be safe, keep smilin'
And keep comin' back.
Levin, I must say that you offer a convincing argument for remaining ignorant. However I have never found myself over burdened by too much knowledge. There are many skills in my kit that don't get pulled out very often but it is nice to know that they are available when I do need them.
Perhaps you are of the school that holds if you haven't used it in a year then you should get rid of it and that is fine because I make my living by being able to draw on about 68 years of accumulated knowledge and experience. I will probably never cross an ocean and if I do I will likely use a gps for keeping track of my position but I also know how to find my position with celestial navigation methods.
You no doubt use road maps or have in your past otherwise you couldn't have found your way across the country. I personally don't care if you use paper charts or not but you asked "WHY" we would bother to learn such an archaic art and we have endeavored to tell you. All of the reasons given are valid and we are not angry with you but most of us hate deliberate stupidity.
Perhaps you are of the school that holds if you haven't used it in a year then you should get rid of it and that is fine because I make my living by being able to draw on about 68 years of accumulated knowledge and experience. I will probably never cross an ocean and if I do I will likely use a gps for keeping track of my position but I also know how to find my position with celestial navigation methods.
You no doubt use road maps or have in your past otherwise you couldn't have found your way across the country. I personally don't care if you use paper charts or not but you asked "WHY" we would bother to learn such an archaic art and we have endeavored to tell you. All of the reasons given are valid and we are not angry with you but most of us hate deliberate stupidity.
998 Day out of 1,000 You'd get by
Kinda like being able to change a tire or a fan belt on your car. Lot's of people manage without that skill but I would not send my wife or kid's out without a spare tire or the knowledge to change it.
Kinda like being able to change a tire or a fan belt on your car. Lot's of people manage without that skill but I would not send my wife or kid's out without a spare tire or the knowledge to change it.
- Status