Why learn to Navigate?
- Thread starter Levin
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You ARE navigating whether you use "GPS", sextants, compass/DR, etc. Also, there's no such thing as 'old school vs. new school'. GPS is just another tool. At one time in history, the sextant was 'new school'. Loran was 'new school', etc. GPS is just the latest tool.
Any electronic device - GPS, Loran, chart plotter, wristwatch, etc. - is subject to failure, batteries dying, displays cracking, etc. Chart plotters that have buildable routes, waypoints are very cool and I use them a lot; both 12V and handheld.
I sailed from LA to Hawaii once and guess what? Our main GPS died on day 3; luckily we had a handheld back up (2 actually) and charts and a sextant. Navigating wasn't a problem but if we'd relied on only the ship's GPS we'd have been in big trouble.
Electronic devices can (and do) fail. But, paper charts can 'fail' too.
Let's go back to the 'rules', shall we? You must have updated navigation tools on your boat. Just ask any friendly Coastie while he/she is inspecting your boat.
Is your 'GPS' unit updated with the latest chart release? Latest notices? Can you use your 'GPS' units if the actual system goes down?
I have done some detailed comparison while sailing offshore and - more importantly - into and out of ports and guess what? They don't always match! The official paper charts seem to be more accurate and I have seen things on them that non of my electronics units showed. Scary, huh? They are probably 99% accurate but, at some point you'll be in that 1%.
I use electronic devices most of the time but always have an (updated) paper chart to reference even if I just look at it occasionally. Oh, and if you are required to keep a log that might be inspected, it's much easier to do on paper although you can do it electronically. The RC may not come to your boat to inspect it however.
These are all just tools. YOU are the navigator and should have the best info you can get/afford. When you're lost and near a foggy coastline it really isn't good to wish you'd have spent a few bucks more.
Any electronic device - GPS, Loran, chart plotter, wristwatch, etc. - is subject to failure, batteries dying, displays cracking, etc. Chart plotters that have buildable routes, waypoints are very cool and I use them a lot; both 12V and handheld.
I sailed from LA to Hawaii once and guess what? Our main GPS died on day 3; luckily we had a handheld back up (2 actually) and charts and a sextant. Navigating wasn't a problem but if we'd relied on only the ship's GPS we'd have been in big trouble.
Electronic devices can (and do) fail. But, paper charts can 'fail' too.
Let's go back to the 'rules', shall we? You must have updated navigation tools on your boat. Just ask any friendly Coastie while he/she is inspecting your boat.
Is your 'GPS' unit updated with the latest chart release? Latest notices? Can you use your 'GPS' units if the actual system goes down?
I have done some detailed comparison while sailing offshore and - more importantly - into and out of ports and guess what? They don't always match! The official paper charts seem to be more accurate and I have seen things on them that non of my electronics units showed. Scary, huh? They are probably 99% accurate but, at some point you'll be in that 1%.
I use electronic devices most of the time but always have an (updated) paper chart to reference even if I just look at it occasionally. Oh, and if you are required to keep a log that might be inspected, it's much easier to do on paper although you can do it electronically. The RC may not come to your boat to inspect it however.
These are all just tools. YOU are the navigator and should have the best info you can get/afford. When you're lost and near a foggy coastline it really isn't good to wish you'd have spent a few bucks more.
One last thing to just through into the mix... if you've never used Google Earth, try it out. It's not a navigational tool so to speak, BUT it is good for getting a 'picture' of an area if you've never been there. Again, the official charts are definitely necessary and Google isn't a replacement, but it is really great to see a true 'picture' of an area.
Again, it's only a tool and subject to being old, and inaccurate sometimes. It is just one more piece of information available to you to use. I did a trip down Baja this year and printed each place we planned to anchor. It was really nice to have 'seen' the area before I got there.
There are other sites (which some replies have included) that overlay chart info with sat pictures, etc. They are very cool but again... only tools.
Again, it's only a tool and subject to being old, and inaccurate sometimes. It is just one more piece of information available to you to use. I did a trip down Baja this year and printed each place we planned to anchor. It was really nice to have 'seen' the area before I got there.
There are other sites (which some replies have included) that overlay chart info with sat pictures, etc. They are very cool but again... only tools.
Still don't see the point
Hello again all,
I've had a few people point out the lightning thing... which means that I should probably have a third GPS on board which is completely run off batteries and not at all plugged into the boat, just in case of a lightning strike. Very unlikely in SoCal (actually I don't think I've ever seen lightning in San Diego... but I'm sure it can happen). Yet there still doesn't seem to be much risk of really losing two GPS, but one can never be too sure.
I agree that one needs to be aware of their surroundings, and no GPS is going to do that for you. I just think that electronic charts, which do all the mathematical calculations for you are a lot more reliable than humans 99.999% of the time. Humans make mistakes, even if you know how to do things well, and seeing how we have these wonderful computers to do the navigation calculations for us... why would we use anything else?
Again my opinion is that people hold on to the old ways of doing things out of the same fear of technology that has always held people back. It's the same fear of technology that spawns all those SciFi "killer robot" movies. Yet most of the time the computer is going to do the calculations better than you, and for those who say "You're putting your life and crew at risk by not using the old methods" I would argue: "Those who rely only on the old methods are putting their lives and crew at greater risk because you, the human, are more likely to error than that GPS machine."
Again more food for thought...
-Levin
BTW… I never needed algebra either…
Hello again all,
I've had a few people point out the lightning thing... which means that I should probably have a third GPS on board which is completely run off batteries and not at all plugged into the boat, just in case of a lightning strike. Very unlikely in SoCal (actually I don't think I've ever seen lightning in San Diego... but I'm sure it can happen). Yet there still doesn't seem to be much risk of really losing two GPS, but one can never be too sure.
I agree that one needs to be aware of their surroundings, and no GPS is going to do that for you. I just think that electronic charts, which do all the mathematical calculations for you are a lot more reliable than humans 99.999% of the time. Humans make mistakes, even if you know how to do things well, and seeing how we have these wonderful computers to do the navigation calculations for us... why would we use anything else?
Again my opinion is that people hold on to the old ways of doing things out of the same fear of technology that has always held people back. It's the same fear of technology that spawns all those SciFi "killer robot" movies. Yet most of the time the computer is going to do the calculations better than you, and for those who say "You're putting your life and crew at risk by not using the old methods" I would argue: "Those who rely only on the old methods are putting their lives and crew at greater risk because you, the human, are more likely to error than that GPS machine."
Again more food for thought...
-Levin
BTW… I never needed algebra either…
IF the third GPS isn't in a faraday cage at the time of the lightning strike, it will probably be fried as well. A pressure cooker makes a good faraday cage for storing the spare backup GPS...as does a metal ammo box.
BTW, anyone who does not use all the navigation tools at their disposal is a fool. GPS, dead reckoning, coastal pilotage, radar, hand-bearing compass, charts, etc. are all just tools. The more of them you know how to use, the better off you will generally be.
BTW, anyone who does not use all the navigation tools at their disposal is a fool. GPS, dead reckoning, coastal pilotage, radar, hand-bearing compass, charts, etc. are all just tools. The more of them you know how to use, the better off you will generally be.
Hello again all,
I've had a few people point out the lightning thing... which means that I should probably have a third GPS on board which is completely run off batteries and not at all plugged into the boat, just in case of a lightning strike. Very unlikely in SoCal (actually I don't think I've ever seen lightning in San Diego... but I'm sure it can happen). Yet there still doesn't seem to be much risk of really losing two GPS, but one can never be too sure.
I agree that one needs to be aware of their surroundings, and no GPS is going to do that for you. I just think that electronic charts, which do all the mathematical calculations for you are a lot more reliable than humans 99.999% of the time. Humans make mistakes, even if you know how to do things well, and seeing how we have these wonderful computers to do the navigation calculations for us... why would we use anything else?
Again my opinion is that people hold on to the old ways of doing things out of the same fear of technology that has always held people back. It's the same fear of technology that spawns all those SciFi "killer robot" movies. Yet most of the time the computer is going to do the calculations better than you, and for those who say "You're putting your life and crew at risk by not using the old methods" I would argue: "Those who rely only on the old methods are putting their lives and crew at greater risk because you, the human, are more likely to error than that GPS machine."
Again more food for thought...
-Levin
BTW… I never needed algebra either…
Levin,
These old farts are all old school and have been left behind by technology.
There's nothing wrong going off shore with a couple of spare AA batteries and a GPS.
You carry on!
sam
These old farts are all old school and have been left behind by technology.
There's nothing wrong going off shore with a couple of spare AA batteries and a GPS.
You carry on!
sam
Don't sweat it. More people out on the water are boneheads than not. You won't stick out a bit.
Levin, You don't even know what you don't know.
If you have ever determined your gas mileage or figured how long it would take to drive 250 miles, you have used algebra. Or if you have figured the number of drinks left in the cooler and the fair share for the people drinking, you have used algebra.
If you have ever determined your gas mileage or figured how long it would take to drive 250 miles, you have used algebra. Or if you have figured the number of drinks left in the cooler and the fair share for the people drinking, you have used algebra.
Good Idea
Thanks for posting the details of your project. [edit - your aft head mod is ...inspired, too]
I may be doing something similar, using an ASUS eee 701 I bought 3 years ago. You might want to consider a computer in the "netbook" class because they're compact yet powerful, and many will power from 12v, with a peak power consumption of 20 W or so.
Unfortunately, the Canadian electronic charts aren't free like the lovely NOAA ones are.
Hey Sumner,
Thanks for posting the details of your project. [edit - your aft head mod is ...inspired, too
]I may be doing something similar, using an ASUS eee 701 I bought 3 years ago. You might want to consider a computer in the "netbook" class because they're compact yet powerful, and many will power from 12v, with a peak power consumption of 20 W or so.
Unfortunately, the Canadian electronic charts aren't free like the lovely NOAA ones are.
Roger,
When I had my C-80 I found at least four major omissions of GRANITE ledges. In one instance I knew there was a ledge there so went looking for it on my C-80, at all zoom ranges, NOT THERE as in totally omitted by the electronic cartographay. It was there on my paper NOAA chart however, glad I had paper & the local knowledge.
Of course paper is not perfect either. In Contention Cove (Blue Hill Bay) in Surry, ME there is a HUGE under water boulder the size of a large garden shed. At low water it is two feet below the surface. It does not show on ANY charting electronic or paper..
On my Garmin when I am at anchor at teh Chebegue Island Boat Yard I am shown on dry land yet my paper chart shows me right where I am..
If you rely solely on a running/operating GPS plotter in Maine, with no paper or local knowledge, you may find your self in a world of hurt. Whitehead Passage is a PRIME example of traditional methods being more accurate than electronic...
90% of the time now I navigate by my plotter, depsite the numerous glitches I've had, but I always have paper back ups within a hand reach. In fog everything is backed up with a paper plot..
It would be my guess that some of the folks who claim to practice DR have a totally un-calibrated compass and don't even know it. How many have a deviation card? How many have actually had their compass professionally swung? DR does not work so well when you really need it, especially when one of your primary tools, the compass, is 10 degrees off or more...
Yes I do try and rely on all sources to keep myself off the rocks but it is admittedly GPS about 90% of the time these days. Ofcourse I am not in California and Maine is a different animal to cruise.
P.S. Three years ago the guy behind me in the mooring field was hit by lightning. Even his back up hand held GPS, that was in a metal box, was fried as were all other hand held, non-plugged in, devices including some FRS walkie talkies.....
Another Perspective
As far as I'm concerned if you can't navigate you should not be allowed to act as captain of a vessel. The Navy and Coast Guard all have the most amazing equipment known to man and every one of them has to learn to navigate. In fact I heard it was required reading at the Coast Guard academy in New London to read Bowditch cover to cover.
If you smash up your boat and someone is killed do you think in court it will be asked what your navigational skills are (let me help you with a clue, yes)? I thought I was a pretty good navigator having used nothing but dead reckoning and a depth sounder in pea soup fog in New England for many long journeys. Then I took the captain exam course and found out I didn't know much at all. Now I don't like big government and intrusion into our freedoms, but knowing how to navigate should be required.
If you can afford so many back up GPS units then what about Radar, another navigation tool I don't have but would like? Should you have two or three radars just in case?? In fact if you have so much money to afford all this back up stuff why not save the money and hire a professional captain to drive you around on your boat? If you are in Boston and set a waypoint to Marthas Vineyard, your GPS will provide a direct route right there. Unfortunately Cape Cod is in the way. If you don't know how to navigate how can you set up a route and waypoints to follow in the GPS to start with?
Hey Roger, not much fog in the south, what do you Maine guys like about it so much?
As far as I'm concerned if you can't navigate you should not be allowed to act as captain of a vessel. The Navy and Coast Guard all have the most amazing equipment known to man and every one of them has to learn to navigate. In fact I heard it was required reading at the Coast Guard academy in New London to read Bowditch cover to cover.
If you smash up your boat and someone is killed do you think in court it will be asked what your navigational skills are (let me help you with a clue, yes)? I thought I was a pretty good navigator having used nothing but dead reckoning and a depth sounder in pea soup fog in New England for many long journeys. Then I took the captain exam course and found out I didn't know much at all. Now I don't like big government and intrusion into our freedoms, but knowing how to navigate should be required.
If you can afford so many back up GPS units then what about Radar, another navigation tool I don't have but would like? Should you have two or three radars just in case?? In fact if you have so much money to afford all this back up stuff why not save the money and hire a professional captain to drive you around on your boat? If you are in Boston and set a waypoint to Marthas Vineyard, your GPS will provide a direct route right there. Unfortunately Cape Cod is in the way. If you don't know how to navigate how can you set up a route and waypoints to follow in the GPS to start with?
Hey Roger, not much fog in the south, what do you Maine guys like about it so much?
Now What?
Here's a typical day in Vineyard sound. GPS and back-up are out for real, it was only down for two hours, why? No idea, but without a compass, chart, and basic navigation skills one could find oneself aground, on the rocks, or lost quiet quickly. Coastal New England has a great system of buoys and navigation aids, assuming one knows how to use them.
Here's a typical day in Vineyard sound. GPS and back-up are out for real, it was only down for two hours, why? No idea, but without a compass, chart, and basic navigation skills one could find oneself aground, on the rocks, or lost quiet quickly. Coastal New England has a great system of buoys and navigation aids, assuming one knows how to use them.
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It's beautiful, tranquil and very Maine. It also keeps a good majority of boaters who don't know how to navigate in it, off the waters. Sadly though plotters and are giving some idiots a real sense of security and it's a LOT less safe then when only competent navigators were the only ones in the pea soup....
Do you know how to use a compass? Do you have a depth sounder? These are navigational tools? Do you use them? My concern would be the GPS having one of those terminator chips in it and it would purposely try to get rid of you by smashing you up on the rocks or putting you in a major shipping lane. The Skynet network uses GPS extensively to track us down and if you want to be connected to it, suit yourself.
We don't like it one bit. We're just stuck here by family, jobs, or being too lazy to pick up and move. Not only is there fog, when it isn't foggy, it's cold. I can't remember the last time I saw a bikini. About the only thing you can say for it is that it isn't too crowded. Do yourself a favor. Stay down there where the living is easy.
Ouch! Yes, I set it up, but I never thought you'd step into it like that. Sorry.
BTW… I never needed algebra either…
In spite of the disingenuousness (that's "trollitude" for those who didn't spend the money to learn Latin) of some of the posters, this has been a great thread. As a professional pilot transitioning from iron gauges to glass cockpits, I've been through this discussion before, and the answer is always the same - you need to know it all.
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