Why flake?

[Geoff K]

Why do we flake the main sail? I've asked this before and have heard; to avoid wrinkles that weaken the sail fabric, to make storing of the main easy, to look nice, because it's been done for years, and some others I can't remember now. None of these make sense to me, however in previous threads (7+ years ago when I had a Hunter 23) I would make enemies when I stated and argued my thoughts. So this time I'll state but not argue. I'd like to keep you folks as friends. Nevertheless, I'd like to hear (again) opinions on this.

My thoughts:

_to avoid wrinkle that weaken the sail fabric_ Sail fabric is stiff enough that I can see bending it might weaken it some. However, flaking bends it in the same place every time. This should lead to weakness in the folds far sooner than the rest of the sail. Has anyone seen sails fall apart/blow out at the folds only? If not, why should we worry about bending/folding/wrinkling the sail?

_to make storing of the main easy_ As compared to flaking a new sail (mine is still new in this regard.) a sail trained to fold/flake in the same place every time is much easier. However, on my H 23 I just grabbed a large roll of sail from the foot and plopped the rest inside it and placed the sail ties. This was very easy. If making storage easy is the only reason, we'll all find different ways that are "easiest" for us and no one will be wrong.

_to look nice_ The H23 sail crumpled but covered with the smooth lower section of sail looked better (my opinion) that the floppy flaked sails I see. With a cover on they all look the same anyway.

_because it's been done for years_ Sailing is very traditional and that's one of the things I like about it... until it makes work for me. I like the nautical language, the salty look of some boats, traditions of the flags, the camaraderie of the dock, etc.. Work, of course, is relative and while I dislike flaking the sail (making it work) someone else might enjoy it (making it fun).

_some others I can't remember now_ But of course, I can't argue this point. If I could it wouldn't exist. <g>

Interested in your thoughts. I promise not to get ornery.

Geoff

 

[Ross]

You flake a sail for the same reason that you fold a shirt it is neater. you could just bundle it up on the boom and it wouldn't suffer but it would take up more space under the sail cover.

 

[Don Guillette]

What is the alternative to flaking your sail that you are now using?

 

[Geoff K]

I am flaking now. With my previous boat, an H23 I did not flake. I held out about 2-3 feet of the bottom of the sail, let the rest fall into it, pulled that bottom fold/flake over and put the ties on. Sort of as Ross says, I just bundled it up on the boom.

Geoff

 

[Stu Jackson]

OK, Geoff, don't flake it and see what happens. I think Ross got it right, it takes less space and will fit "inside" you mainsail cover. Folks with stack packs don't have to flake, folks with Ducthman have it done automatically. I have lazy jacks, somewhere in between?!?

 

[RichH]

Assuming your sail is woven dacron, flaking insures that only the creases of the flaking are being folded/creased which minimizes 'random' creasing of the sail. Good sail material is 'filled' with plasticizers or is so tightly woven than random folding will weaken or 'breakdown' the integrity of the sail .... repetitive flaking (along the same 'folds' every time) extends the useful life of the sail. If you randomly fold you increase the risk of increasing the 'permeability' (air going THROUGH the fabric) which then 'short circuits' the high pressure side to the low pressure side and THROUGH the sail fabric.
Rolling a sail is best; next best is flaking on the same folds every time; the worst is randomly 'bunching' the sail .... and then in all cases, tying the sail down with gaskets/tie-downs that eventually break the plasticizer and/or fibers.

 

[Geoff K]

Stu, do folks with the stack pack just let the sail fall inside and close it up? No organizing or folding?

Rich, I can see the "plasticizer" effect. My sail is indeed plastic like. I even have trouble grabbing it because it is to stiff and slippery to hang onto. And it crackles when I fold it. But I still have trouble seeing why the occasional random small fold of a crinkled/stuffed sail would be worse then the everytime fold of a flaked sail. Does it affect performance or just sail lifespan?

Geoff

 

[Stu Jackson]

Geoff, sometimes they pull at the leech working forward, just the way us "flakers" do! It's getting to be that the details don't matter, but the concepts have been presented. Go for whatever you like.

Your friend,

"Flaker" (sometimes) Stu

 

[Joe]

Either way is fine....

Geoff........ I totally agree with you.... except that I do "loosely" flake my main.... however, if you look back at the video sailing series by John Rousmaniere, produced in the late 80's based on the "Annapolis Book of Seamanship" you note that he teaches his crew to stow the main using your method...i.e. rolling it up inside itself... so go for it... It's your boat... so suit yourself. It's a non issue as long as I'm concerned.. you can't prove which method is easier on the sail ... I do what's easier and on my boat it is easier to flake it.

 

[Warren Milberg]

In addition to "all the above" reasons to flake (fyi, when my main was new, the cover would not fit over it unless the sail was neatly flaked), on my boat the main raises more easily when starting from a flaked state.

 

[Geoff K]

Thanks, everyone, it's been helpful. This is certainly different then the rather rigid attitude of 7+ years ago. Or perhaps it's my attitude that's changed with age.

Joe, the picture you provide shows a sail flaked far neater than I achieve even after 15-20 minutes of the two of us wrestling with it at the dock. But I think I'm too lazy to learn to do it that well.

Warren, you've given me the one reason I'm going to really consider. We've had problems getting our sail up. With the total refit we did recently we ran lines back to the cockpit and the main sail binds enough that I need the winch for the last 2-3 feet and my wife needs it for the last 7-8 feet.

The bottom line; I'll try stuffing next time at the boat with a few pulls at the leech to avoid big globs and see how that goes.

But perhaps I've taken too much of your time for such a flakey subject. Thanks to all.

Geoff

 

[Alan]

Rolling puts in no creases or folds and so is ideally the best possible choice. We drop and roll our main (carbon fiber) and genoas after every Wed night race.
However, when I first bought my boat I was very diligent about flaking the main on the boom exactly the same way every time. After a while the sail would flake itself from the memory in the fabric. As Warren suggests, hoisting the main from its flaked position makes it much easier to raise.

 

[Joe]

How to flake your mainsail...

Joe, the picture you provide shows a sail flaked far neater than I achieve even after 15-20 minutes of the two of us wrestling with it at the dock. But I think I'm too lazy to learn to do it that well.
....
But perhaps I've taken too much of your time for such a flakey subject. Thanks to all.

Geoff

Geoff... I understand your frustration so.... get the sail down anyway you can until you get to the dock where you can flake it properly...

The key is to alternate the panels as the sail comes down.. I do this by standing at the mast.. difficult otherwise.

Once the sail is down... stand in the cockpit and even out the folds by pulling the leech sections backward. You should be able to get 3 or 4 folds evenly straddling the boom before going back forward and cleaning up the rest of the sail... Finally, secure the sail with 5 or 6 sail ties using a slipped square knot or a simple bow tie. Now you're good to go with the cover.

BTW the sail in the picture is no my boat, it's a friends and was posted to show an example of laminated, bolt roped sail flaked on the boom ready to deploy. My boat has a traditional dacron main with slugs.

 

[Cobalt]

I'm actually with you on this Joe. Not that I like a sloppy boat but its just one of those things that I've not accepted as paramount to the sails life. I'm rather of the opinion that if your sail can't take a couple of wrinkles with 100's of ft. pounds of force upon its surface in strong winds whats the the use.

Besides, I'm more afraid of sun damage that anal attentiveness on a properly flaked main sail. When I've docked I'm like get the sail on that wad of sail would ya> lol

 

[Geoff K]

An update, FWIW. I was at the boat this week and did not flake, just stuffed the main into a large fold of the bottom of the sail. Not sure if I'm going to like it this way. It is very good for controlling the sail after take down and during return to marina, saves a lot of time as there's no more to do at the marina, but makes it more difficult to get the sail cover on. The sail wants to fall off the boom and requires frequent hoist back on. The flaking centered the weight of the sail on the boom so it stayed there. The random stuff centers the weight of the sail higher and any little sideways force sends the sail sagging off the boom. Once the sail cover is on all is fine and all looks good from the outside.

I'll keep it up for a while to see if it's a viable option.

Geoff

 

[zeehag]

try rolling it as you drop sail...may work better--keep on top of boom with gaskets/sail ties...if your sail cover is loose enough should work...we did this when we were sailing last yr.....worked fine---easy to do in rough weather--is kinda a roll/ stuff action at one time ,,lol....have fun!!!!

 

[Geoff K]

Using sail ties

but it still flops off. This isn't a problem until I'm putting on the cover back at the dock. The front of the sail sits on the boom nicely. The mid section falls off. Then I get a sail cover that looks like a sea serpent. Maybe I could paint some eyes at one end?

I'm trying to avoid going to the mast/boom while in rough water. Perhaps I'll need a lazy jack or something like that. Now I go to the boom as the sail comes down and lash it with sail ties that have plastic clips, easy and quick.

 

[zeehag]

lazy jax are goood for keeping the sail managed while in messy weather and reducing sail--but one still has to go fwd to secure it(sail)...so the wind doesnt grab it and make problems with too much sail suddenly.....wear a tether....make sure is affixed to something secure when you go forward....and not so long as to make you become keelhauled in a fall......