Which winch bolts will work for me new winches?

[dlochner]

Pray tell - explain. I truly only wish to provide knowledge...

dj

The information and standards that are available to those in the field that affect our choices. However that information is just not available to the average consumer. All the choices, all the options, and no way to know the outcome of our choices. Make the right choice and life is good, make the wrong choice and well, winches get pulled off a boat.

When I go into a store how do I know if I'm really buying 316 or 304 or 303 or 18-8 or some other alloy?

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Okay so that was the real problem. In fact count yourself lucky that the bolts snapped. If the bolts were stronger maybe the deck would have given. Boneheaded move on TBUSA's part.

I’m surprised the deck was stronger than the bolts. Regardless, pulling what I assume is a grounded boat with a 200HP engine tied to a winch is never a good idea.

 

[dLj]

The information and standards that are available to those in the field that affect our choices. However that information is just not available to the average consumer. All the choices, all the options, and no way to know the outcome of our choices. Make the right choice and life is good, make the wrong choice and well, winches get pulled off a boat.

When I go into a store how do I know if I'm really buying 316 or 304 or 303 or 18-8 or some other alloy?

Ah, if they store is not specifying the alloy, as in 304, or 316, their are of course are others, if they are only saying "stainless steel" then the alloy is not being specified. There is a huge range of stainless steel alloys.

So to the average consumer - make sure they are specifying the alloy.

The worst one is when they say 18-8. That's total marketing bullshit. 18-8 is not an alloy. It's a marketing term developed in the fastener industry in order to allow the use of 303, a free Machining alloy that is great for home use but not for marine use.

If the fastener is made from 304 or 316, they will say so as it is more expensive so the marketing aspect will mandate that declaration.

In the case when you are using a serious supplier - I tend to ask for certs - that tends to clean out the crap....

dj

 

[JohnShannon]

Buy from Grainger? They may spec the alloy. In the end unless you go to the trouble of forging your own you will have to trust somebody at sometime. Welcome to modern i.e post neolithic revolution society.

 

[Tally Ho]

I think I would be using the largest diameter bolt/ screw that fits the holes in the winch base. I would not drill the winch base, but I would drill the fiberglass as needed to use the right size bolts.

Greg

 

[thinwater]

... You say the female threads stripped. Maybe those were not the same alloy as the bolts?...

This. Few picked up on the thread failure, which just should NEVER happen, even with undersized fasteners. There was some serious problem with the nuts. It's not about the bolts, it's about some sort of galvanic corrosion or similar.

Winches are speced with bolts that match the strength of the winch. You don't need anything more. Would you rather rip the winch in half? And obviously you need a probler backing plate; bug washers are a gamble unless you are quite sure of the layup. But stainless Unistrut washers are a good idea. Nice and thick. Also extra thick (it's a grade) fender washers.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Which begs the question, why was TowBoat US tying a line to your winch? Enquiring minds want to know.

Because the tow operator panicked when he saw I was 1/4 mile away from shore. He was scared, I wasn't. I knew there was multiple options to get out of that situation. That guy is better suited as a tour boat captain. I have a thread about the whole experience

I’m surprised the deck was stronger than the bolts. Regardless, pulling what I assume is a grounded boat with a 200HP engine tied to a winch is never a good idea.

The O'Day 25 is tougher than I ever imagined. We had an anchor on ready to go but not deployed. I was very glad I didn't have to pull up an oversized anchor in those conditions. He had about 500hp between two outboards and kept complaining about how much gas they used. He would make a much better tour boat captain

This. Few picked up on the thread failure, which just should NEVER happen, even with undersized fasteners. There was some serious problem with the nuts. It's not about the bolts, it's about some sort of galvanic corrosion or similar.

Winches are speced with bolts that match the strength of the winch. You don't need anything more. Would you rather rip the winch in half? And obviously you need a probler backing plate; bug washers are a gamble unless you are quite sure of the layup. But stainless Unistrut washers are a good idea. Nice and thick. Also extra thick (it's a grade) fender washers.

I was a bit skeptical considering how many 1/4" bolts I've torn to pieces over the years.

Surprisingly, the Harken manual was very specific about using their hardware. Those winches came with the boat. I can grab a pic of the old hardware. I'm just glad I don't have a fiberglass project on my hands

The winch was made for 1/4" hardware so I used 1/4" screws with a unistrut washer, two 1/4" washers, locknut and a regular nut. The unistrut was not stainless but even if they were left to the elements I'm guessing they'd outlast the boat. Saltwater would be a whole 'nother story

We got one winch installed in about 1.25 hours. It may be too soon to tell but it feels like its much easier to pull in the jib. The forecast estimated 17kts. We were moving very quickly with only part of jib out as we watched the fireworks from Navy Pier

 

[Joe]

I can't imagine bargain basement shopping for a just a dozen quality fasteners. I always purchase SS fasteners from West Marine..... why... cause they will have them in stock and you can return or exchange them if you need. Plus, I am confident in the quality of fasteners they sell. If there's another reputable chandlery in your area, by all means, use them... .but don't go to a hardware store for this kind of stuff. It's just not worth the minimal savings. You want SS 316 bolts.
As far as size... the winch will determine that. What ever the manufacturer recommends for that winch (that info is available from manufacturers website, but 1/4 x 20 Flathead sounds good). As far as strength.... well you're putting a size 40 in a 25 foot boat. You've already oversized it on the hardware side so you're good with manufacturer recommendation.
Finally, build a new, proper backing plate for the winch and use some big ass fender washers to boot.

 

[FastOlson]

While you are doing the new install, be sure that each winch base is correctly oriented to take the line load on the drum. Lewmar's drawing is pretty clear on this, altho the Anderson drawing is better. While it's normal for the original builder to do this correctly, their shop guys may not have always followed instructions. I have been in shops where the first thing the workers do is throw away all.... packing and printed instructions... !
i.e. do not assume that the original orientation was correct.

 

[thinwater]

Because the tow operator panicked when he saw I was 1/4 mile away from shore. He was scared, I wasn't. I knew there was multiple options to get out of that situation. That guy is better suited as a tour boat captain. I have a thread about the whole experience....

Good thread. It's always good to share real experiences.

IMO, anchoring would have been a VERY good option, one that is under utilized in the heat of the moment. If you can sail some place safe that's good, if not, it will work if you have enough scope. What it does is buy you TIME to carefully consider what to do. In this case, you would have gotten the engine running, although the steering would have been wonky it sounds like. However, with a working engine, you might steer with a drogue. But that is another story.drogue steering

Anchoring buys you time to calm down and think. To weigh your options. I've done this three times over the past 40 years when an engine failed somewhere inconvenient. Each time, it bought me time to solve the problem.

The other thing expereince teaches you is to be careful when challenging the weather. In the end, everyone needs to get their ass whooped at least once to drive the point home (we're all slow learners that way!). Most of us have been whooped multiple times.

 

[kappykaplan]

anchoring would have been a VERY good option, one that is under utilized in the heat of the moment

 

[dlochner]

[QUOTE="thinwater, post: 1710937, member: 103071
The other thing expereince teaches you is to be careful when challenging the weather. In the end, everyone needs to get their ass whooped at least once to drive the point home (we're all slow learners that way!). Most of us have been whooped multiple times.
[/QUOTE]

Yep. First time was in a 22' boat, a downwind sail in a forecasted 15-20 with gusts to 25. Ended up with steady winds in the 40s and gusts past 50. Seas were running 10-12 and higher.

 

[DougM]

Those of you who suggested anchoring possibly have never been near Lake Michigan. Overall, the idea is sound, but a quarter mile or more out in the lake with a 25 foot boat, in a two to four foot chop, you might not have a big enough anchor and/or enough anchor line to get an anchor to set.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

My main concern was falling off while trying to pull up an FX23 anchor. With great holding power comes great size

 

[jssailem]

The winch should adequately haul up the anchor and any chain from the bottom. But does not need to be used to break the anchor free out of the mud.

When your anchor sets in the mud, winches are not what breaks the anchor free from the mud. It is the boat. Pull up to the buried anchor till the rode is nearly vertical. Tie off the rode to a strong cleat (in olden days boats had a Sampson post on the bow for such use). Once tied off let the boat riding up and down in the chop, or driven forward a bit by your motor, or raised sail, to pull the anchor free from the mud. Once free pull the anchor up the rest of the way either by hand or using the winch.

 

[dlochner]

My main concern was falling off while trying to pull up an FX23 anchor. With great holding power comes great size

That's way overkill for a boat your size! It's larger than the fortress I carry on my boat.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

That's way overkill for a boat your size! It's larger than the fortress I carry on my boat.

I looked it up. It's rated for a 39-45' boat. I got it for free. The size makes stowing it a bit difficult but it's great for stubbing toes!

 

[dlochner]

I looked it up. It's rated for a 39-45' boat. I got it for free. The size makes stowing it a bit difficult but it's great for stubbing toes!

Shoes are great for preventing stubbed toes!

 

[jssailem]

Or closed toed sandals..

 

[Project_Mayhem]

All valid points. I'll probably get an anchor that fits the bow hooks and store this one in the berth or lazarette. Speaking of which, I have a small port on my boat that the rode feeds through. Our dock line caught on the cap yesterday and into the water it went. Does anyone know what these ports are called?

EDIT: Nevermind. They're called deck pipes