Where to put clutches and winch?

AaronD · Mar 9, 2020

Good plan on all-line halyards. See this discussion for some thoughts about internal vs. external.

Many C-22 owners who want clutches end up shortening the handrails, or removing them completely. Here are my pics. Also see Stingy's post.

Luke (@CloudDiver) removed the original handrails, and then built up epoxy 'feet' on the edge of the cabin top to add stainless handrails outside of his lines. There are pics somewhere in his thread; I can't find them quickly, but it's worth skimming through his full thread for ideas, if you haven't already.

Regarding life without handrails: when going forward, I always go over the cabin top, where I have jacklines, so I haven't missed the handrails as much as you might think, but I'm still planning Luke's addition sometime, whenever it makes it to the top of the list.

Re: mounting on the pop-top. I asked the same thing at one point, and wiser heads dissuaded me (I did go ahead and mount my outhaul and Cunningham cleats on the pop-top, but those both have block-and-tackle mechanical advantage, so the loads on the cleats are very low).

Re: winch - some people have added halyard winches, but most of us haven't bothered. I've never found that a winch is necessary. 'Sweating' up the halyard (pulling at a right angle to the line, either sideways at the mast, or upward before the clutch) gives me more than enough mechanical advantage for my poor sail-trimming skills.

Justin_NSA · Mar 9, 2020

I would do anything before mounting them on a poptop. I had the same situation on my Mac26S but i had room on either side of it.

Justin_NSA · Mar 9, 2020

Ben4195 said:
I was on the fence about a halyard winch. I read a post on here about how the halyard winch is necessary to get the last couple inches of stretch out of the luff, or something like that. I read it last week so may be mis-remembering it.

That's a thing on a big sail. I use the winch that way. I'm not sure it's necessary on a C22. Save your money.

AndreInPortland · Mar 9, 2020

I'm currently reasoning my way through a "some-lines-led-aft" project, and I'm also reluctant to remove or cut the handrails. I'm already up to my eyeballs in project scope creep.

I'm not 100% convinced this is the path I want to go, but Spinlock's PXR cam cleats are very narrow, especially the 2mm - 6mm cleats. This assumes you want to go with 6mm halyards and no winch, but with those concessions you can just barely squeeze two cam cleats without having to do any modification or removal to the handrails. Take a look at the attached photo of me dry fitting two of the cam cleats. They can be staggered fore/aft even further to give better clearance and separation. As I said, I haven't drilled any holes yet since I'm still validating this approach, but it seems promising, with the caveats I shared above.

rpludwig · Mar 9, 2020

one way to do it, without winches and retaining most of the handrails:

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?attachments/rope-cleats-jib-winch-pdf.126651/

otoh, I have a pair of Lewmar 6's on the shelf, waiting on how to (and time to) do this myself...will likely build some bases and cut 2 rungs off the handrails leaving room for the winches & clutches...or losing the handrails altogether.

do some searches, look at stingy;s method, cloud diver's thread, my thread 12502 and plenty others for discussion...I do know Gene wouldn't be without them, but us with <86 models have a bit less room to work with....

Justin_NSA · Mar 9, 2020

Ben4195 said:
Opinions on adding halyard winches w/ lines led aft

For those of you who have run your lines aft and installed cams or rope clutches on the cabin top; I have noticed two schools of thought here. Some people have installed halyard winches, others have placed the clutches or cams as far aft as possible to have a good lead angle to the primary...

forums.sailboatowners.com

Justin, this is the link where someone else asked about halyard winches for a C22. Some were for it, some weren't. If I did it, I'd likely take an extra winch I have laying around, rather than buy one.

if you already have one, I say go for it. It will be easier to tighten the luff, especially for your better half.

Richie50 · Mar 9, 2020

AndreInPortland said:
I'm currently reasoning my way through a "some-lines-led-aft" project, and I'm also reluctant to remove or cut the handrails. I'm already up to my eyeballs in project scope creep.

I'm not 100% convinced this is the path I want to go, but Spinlock's PXR cam cleats are very narrow, especially the 2mm - 6mm cleats. This assumes you want to go with 6mm halyards and no winch, but with those concessions you can just barely squeeze two cam cleats without having to do any modification or removal to the handrails. Take a look at the attached photo of me dry fitting two of the cam cleats. They can be staggered fore/aft even further to give better clearance and separation. As I said, I haven't drilled any holes yet since I'm still validating this approach, but it seems promising, with the caveats I shared above.

I have the Spinlocks with one on each side. Works fine for me.

AndreInPortland · Mar 10, 2020

Ben4195 said:
Thanks so much, All, for your insight. Andre, are these the Spinlock PXR units you're using? Are they substantial enough to deal with the pressure? they look as though they may not be super strong. The 6mm line is fine, I think, as the halyards from Catalina Direct are 1/4 inch, which I believe equates to 6mm.

Ah, good question - I forgot to mention that as well. The specs for the Spinlock PXR0206 cam cleat says "Loads up to 308lbs." This would likely be the weak point in the system of halyard line -> masthead sheave -> block at bottom of mast -> deck organizer -> PXR cam cleat. I haven't spent the time to determine if 308lbs will be enough holding force. I'm not a racer, just a casual day sailor, so getting the perfect sail shape isn't at the top of my objectives. Maybe someone else on here can chime in?

- Andre

Joe · Mar 14, 2020

Why don't you relocate the teak handrails inboard to the pop top? If you're using 1/4" or 5/16" halyards then I would opt for the reliable Harken 150 cam cleat w/fairlead which you can stagger mount if you need space.... it handles a wider range of line than the PXR. I don't recommend clutches unless you're installing winches.... especially non self tailing winches. I like the idea of being able to run the halyard back to the primary winch if needed.... so mounting the cleat near the edge of the cabin top would give an advantage for that and quick release for reefing. Btw, the Spinlock load ratings should be adequate ….

Gene Neill · Mar 14, 2020

Joe said:
Why don't you relocate the teak handrails inboard to the pop top?

rpludwig · Mar 14, 2020

y'all got me thinkin' again....lose the teak handrails, put Cloud Diver's stainless ones on the poptop (fewer holes, no maintenance)....then do your thing with winches/cleats/clutches of choice outboard of the poptop...

AaronD · Mar 14, 2020

rpludwig said:
y'all got me thinkin' again....lose the teak handrails, put Cloud Diver's stainless ones on the poptop (fewer holes, no maintenance)....then do your thing with winches/cleats/clutches of choice outboard of the poptop...

I don't have a source offhand, but I believe I recall a recommendation to add a second set of pop top dogs, to hold the top in place in rough conditions or a knockdown. It seems you'd definitely want to do that if adding load-bearing hardware (like handrails) to the top.

That said, I haven't done it myself yet. I should probably bite the bullet and replace my old ones and add a second set, but $40 each seems steep.

Jacomo Sailor · Mar 14, 2020

I did a lines aft project on Gypsy Soul last spring. I used Schaffer deck mounted turning blocks, CD 2 sheave deck organizers, Spinlock PXR cam cleats and 3" Gibb England winches. I also used 8 mm sta set line. This set up did necessitate removing one loop from the teak handrails which I wanted to keep for aesthetics. I chose the Spinlocks because of the limited space available, and also because they were much cheaper than a double clutch that was small enough to fit. I chose the Gibb England winches because A: I already had one that was mounted on the side of the mast, and B: I couldn't find a current production 3" winch, which is the largest diameter that will fit without some fiberglass work. I inquired here and on the facebook group and got very mixed opinions about the PXR cam cleats. I tried them anyway and after an entire season of use I can say that I am perfectly happy with them, they work flawlessly. I sailed several times a week all season in conditions ranging from very light to rather heavy and I did not experience a single failure to unlock under load or accidental opening as others suggested that I would. The only issue I found with this system is because of the extra line and extra turns involved vs stock setup, the headsail doesn't drop under it's own weight as easily when the halyard is cast free. The main reason I wanted a lines aft setup was so I didn't have to leave the cockpit to drop sails in heavy conditions, so running up on deck to finish pulling down the headsail defeated the purpose. I have since rigged a headsail downhaul that runs along the side decking and everything is groovy now. Here's a video I shot while planning the project. The placement of the turning blocks and deck organizers were tweaked a bit for a cleaner look, but it's basically the same layout. Somewhere I have pics of the finished product and I'll post the later.

Where to put clutches and winch?

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