Where to attach the backstay tensioner?

kappykaplan · Dec 19, 2018

@Crazy Dave Condon will probably be able to help you. Welcome to the forums!

isaksp00 · Dec 19, 2018

My 23 doesn't have a backstay tensioner. But it also lacks any convenient fitting for attaching one. I think the bolts you refer to are the rudder pintles. I can't picture any way to attach to the upper pintle without interfering with the rudder. Assuming you even really get value from a tensioner on the 23 rig, you may have to add some hardware for the attachment. I suppose you could rig some sort of bridle using the "cleats" at the stern - I mean the rods embedded in the fiberglass that act as stern cleats.

Hunter216 · Dec 19, 2018

Mark
I found this on an old posting, same issue that you have
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/adjustable-backstay.8525/
Dave has a depth of knowledge that would likely include how to do this as well
I would only add that you should be careful to not overtension the complete rig as you can apply considerable force with the adjuster you have. Although I didn’t have a H23 I had my backstay turnbuckles set on the loose side with the adjuster all the way “up”. This provides the largest range of mast rake and forestry sag possible. Maybe that’s not safe with an H23 rig so please check with other owners of that specific model for advice.
There are lots of articles you might want to check like this one
https://www.sailingworld.com/getting-most-from-your-backstay

Crazy Dave Condon · Dec 20, 2018

I never was a fan for a split backstay tension adjuster on this boat as my racing experts on the 23 wing keel Hunter sailboat found no real need for it from performance and issues with the rigging attachments. I will not comment on that any further but will on a few installed.

On my iPhone, I blew up the photo and noted the starboard wire of the split backstay about two feet up may be pinched. I suggest an immediate inspection to see if that needs replacement. Cannot be sure.

What you have is the only way with a couple of suggestions. First, any new attachment in the center of the transom will be impractible as the rudder tiller will be very difficult to move from side to side. Also another item to get in the way of working with the motor in some ways. My suggestion on top of the cams for the cam cleat, you purchase an eye that is of the same length between the top bolts and attach it on top of the clam held by the bolts. It would give you more ease of handling but be cautious of the height of the eye.
In addition, rasise that cam cleat. Not sure if anything out there to attach to the bottom to allow it to swivel but at least raise it off from the deck using long d shackles and possible with a twist shackle to adjust the angle for easier handling. Hope this helps.

Merry Christmas

Hunter216 · Dec 20, 2018

Mark:

I should correct my previous post in that the adjuster doesn't really adjust the "mast rake" but more accurately the "mast bend". I also bought a used boat that already had an adjuster so I learned to use it because it was there. As Dave points out you likely don't need it to sail effectively but if it's already there it might be enjoyable to tinker with as you progress. I applaud the fact that your investing time to understand your boat before you get out on the water.

I also said "forestry" not forestay (darn autocorrect strikes again!!!)

isaksp00 · Dec 20, 2018

The backstay on my 23 is always a tiny bit loose - when I get the forestay and side stays "right", and even if I tighten the turnbuckles on the backstay all the way in, it stays slightly loose. This is the way I got it from the prev owner. Of course, I don't know exactly what it should be - Dave would know. That said, I have assumed that the backstay is more of a "safety net" given the B&R rig with its backswept spreaders on the 23 (at least, with my Z Spar spars). I have no idea what the effect would be if the backstay were a lot tighter.

JRacer · Dec 20, 2018

On the J24, the split backstay is rigged with a block up at the bridle with a single line that runs through that, down to a fairlead at the top of the cockpit at the aft end then to a cheek block mounted at the bottom of the cockpit at the aft end. From there it turns forward to another cheek block mounted at the bottom of the cockpit just forward of the traveler bar location then up to a sprung bullet block at the top of the cockpit. From there it crosses the cockpit and cleats in a cam cleat with enough tail that it can be trimmed from the rail. Opposite side is rigged the same way. Attached are some pictures that should give you the idea. Sorry, I could not find any with the lines rigged in the cockpit.

Crazy Dave Condon · Dec 20, 2018

@isaksp00
I do not know the age of your boat and whether or not the original standing rigging has been replaced or not. I think you were saying there is no more adjustment in the turnbuckle aft? What about the shroud turnbuckles? If that is the case, you need to replace your standing rigging . Not sure if you would want that much prebend in a rig of a smaller boat like the Hunter 23 but correct rake is important. Generally when I refer to a B & R rig, it is one with no back stay even though the rig of your boat was designed by B&R.

isaksp00 · Dec 20, 2018

The side stay turnbuckles have plenty of adjustment. They are about halfway in, maybe a bit more, when the shrouds feel properly tight to me. It is only the backstay turnbuckles that are all the way in yet leave the backstay "not tight". The backstay does not hang loosely, it just isn't as tight as the sidestays. I don't know how tight the backstay should feel when correct. I have assumed that it does not get truly taut, as I would worry about the strength of the alunimum masthead crane it is attached to if really hauled in.

JRacer · Dec 20, 2018

On the J24, we would typically tighten the backstay turnbuckles just to the point that the tension was just sufficient to cause the bridle to rise to the top (not drop down from the top by their own weight). Then the tensioner line was used to put more tension on the backstay to bend the mast and flatten the main. When the backstay tension line was fully released, the bridle would rise to the top and the only mast bend at that point was from prebend put in by adjusting the side stays.

Hunter216 · Dec 20, 2018

I found this older thread, apparently there are several versions of H23 mast.

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/h23-rigging-tuning.4166/

Joe · Dec 21, 2018

Anchor the adjusting end (tackle and cleat) to one side, next to the split backstay leg... you can use a padeye as shown in the picture or purchase a tang for through bolting next to the backstay's chain plates. The control line follows the leg up to the block array, then back down the other side to be anchored near he other chain plate. This method avoids conflict with the tiller.

Crazy Dave Condon · Dec 21, 2018

Joe
Thank you sir. That is exactly the diagram I was looking for. As for the pad eye, please put a backing plate on underneath the deck to distribute the load.

FOR THE RECORD, THE ORIGINAL MASTS CAME FROM KEYON ISOMAT AND THEN LATER Z SPAR. I knew the management at both.

As a dealer who sold more of thes boats than any other dealer, the emphasis on design was for pleasure while others were designed for racing. Adding a backstay tension adjuster, those wo added it found it to be a nusance when trailering all the time. Did it really help, I heard pros and cons but will refrain on my thoughts

isaksp00 · Dec 21, 2018

The 23 has tangs at either side of the transom to which the legs of the split backstay attach. Maybe there is a way to use those as attachment points as pictured by Joe.

Joe · Dec 22, 2018

CoralRose said:
==--==

Joe and Crazy Dave and everyone else interested for that matter, I will try to employ the rigging in this figure and will look to see if I need to install a padeye (perhaps the tensioner can be attached to the backstay eyebolt). I will let you know how I get on. I can't work on this problem until after the holidays due to family matters. So, watch here for an update in January. Many thanks for all the great suggestions! Happy Holidays, Mark "Coral Rose"

If you install it, and find it easy to operate, you will use it....daysailor, cruiser or racer....makes no difference.... it's an additional tool to make sailing more fun.

Crazy Dave Condon · Dec 23, 2018

Adding a pad eye please put a backing plate inside to distibute the load. Padeye is the way I would go and adding a quick release would be the way I would do it

Joe · Dec 26, 2018

One final comment... you have another option. Remove the split backstay entirely.... use the existing tangs (or chain plates) to anchor the tackle.... dyneema cored line would be stronger that the wire... you wouldn't have to buy the expensive three way block... just a simple double at the top, a single on one side and a single with cleat and becket on the control side creates a 4:1 purchase. Other configurations are possible depending on how much purchase you prefer, or whether you want cleating on both sides, or run forward.

P100D · Dec 29, 2018

Joe said:
One final comment... you have another option. Remove the split backstay entirely.... use the existing tangs (or chain plates) to anchor the tackle.... dyneema cored line would be stronger that the wire... you wouldn't have to buy the expensive three way block... just a simple double at the top, a single on one side and a single with cleat and becket on the control side creates a 4:1 purchase. Other configurations are possible depending on how much purchase you prefer, or whether you want cleating on both sides, or run forward.

Now that's a great idea!

Where to attach the backstay tensioner?

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