I've noticed that when I'm on some tack, the shrowd on the opposite side is loose. Does that mean I should have more tension, on both sides ?
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Floppy shrouds
Mikey, It's ok. The mast bends a bit. Some believe very tight shrouds are better from a ultimate performance point of view (America's Cup boat type thinking). Others follow the traditional approach. I've experimented with both and still switch back and forth form time-to-time. No need to stress the hardware unnecessarily. (See, I still can’t decide!)
Mikey, It's ok. The mast bends a bit. Some believe very tight shrouds are better from a ultimate performance point of view (America's Cup boat type thinking). Others follow the traditional approach. I've experimented with both and still switch back and forth form time-to-time. No need to stress the hardware unnecessarily. (See, I still can’t decide!)
rigging tension
I use the loos tension gauge, the paperwork states that it is more common to have rig failure occur from slack rigging than tight rigging, they say during a tack or jibe the load changes from side to side and if there is too much slack a sudden jerk occurs. They give specific values for each wire size. Tuned by their specs. my leeward shrouds get a little slack above 15 knots of true wind speed. Hope this helps
I use the loos tension gauge, the paperwork states that it is more common to have rig failure occur from slack rigging than tight rigging, they say during a tack or jibe the load changes from side to side and if there is too much slack a sudden jerk occurs. They give specific values for each wire size. Tuned by their specs. my leeward shrouds get a little slack above 15 knots of true wind speed. Hope this helps
Check the owners manual too...
I keep a Loos gauge on board to check and adjust rig tension as needed. The owners manual says that the lower stays are supposed to be tight, because they actually support most of the mast. The uppers should not be too tight, in fact I think the leeward stay is supposed to be just slack when you are hard on the wind in about 15 kts of breeze. I think the idea is to allow you to tune the bendy rig to suit wind and wave conditions. In heavier wind, the slack allows to top of the mast to bend to leeward, which depowers the top of the sail and helps the boat stay on its feet. I definitely noticed it the first time I took the slack out of my rig. BTW, look again at the rig on the America's Cup boats...the top of the masts are not that stiff. They bend forward when the boat is heading downwind under spinnaker. Good luck with the rig (and the rest of the boat!) Peter s/v Raven
I keep a Loos gauge on board to check and adjust rig tension as needed. The owners manual says that the lower stays are supposed to be tight, because they actually support most of the mast. The uppers should not be too tight, in fact I think the leeward stay is supposed to be just slack when you are hard on the wind in about 15 kts of breeze. I think the idea is to allow you to tune the bendy rig to suit wind and wave conditions. In heavier wind, the slack allows to top of the mast to bend to leeward, which depowers the top of the sail and helps the boat stay on its feet. I definitely noticed it the first time I took the slack out of my rig. BTW, look again at the rig on the America's Cup boats...the top of the masts are not that stiff. They bend forward when the boat is heading downwind under spinnaker. Good luck with the rig (and the rest of the boat!) Peter s/v Raven
Peter BTW BTW
You do let off on the back stay as you go from close to run. I actually heard the sail trimmer call it as they came around to a reach on ESPN. I use visual more than anything. Lower shrouds tight mast stright to spreader. tighten the uppers till I get about a 6 inch bend from center at the mast cap. Fore stay as tight as possable and adjust the back stay on the fly to a max of 8 more inches from center. All the while sighting up the mast track to keep it stright side to side. What are the numbers your using now and under what conditions?
You do let off on the back stay as you go from close to run. I actually heard the sail trimmer call it as they came around to a reach on ESPN. I use visual more than anything. Lower shrouds tight mast stright to spreader. tighten the uppers till I get about a 6 inch bend from center at the mast cap. Fore stay as tight as possable and adjust the back stay on the fly to a max of 8 more inches from center. All the while sighting up the mast track to keep it stright side to side. What are the numbers your using now and under what conditions?
Tuning Question
When you look up the mast, about how much bend is there to aft on a properly tuned H23 (wing keel version)? Keep in mind that the mast has a bend built into it on the upper 4-5 feet. thanks Gary
When you look up the mast, about how much bend is there to aft on a properly tuned H23 (wing keel version)? Keep in mind that the mast has a bend built into it on the upper 4-5 feet. thanks Gary
Rigging - mast bend
Gary, I tighten the uppers till the mast cap has been pulled back about 6 inches from it's pre-tighten position. Then snug up the back stay. I use visual (calibrated eyeballs). I walk down the dock a couple of slips and try to guage it. Not very scientific but it works OK. Greg
Gary, I tighten the uppers till the mast cap has been pulled back about 6 inches from it's pre-tighten position. Then snug up the back stay. I use visual (calibrated eyeballs). I walk down the dock a couple of slips and try to guage it. Not very scientific but it works OK. Greg
Hunter 23 tuning and performance guru
Serious 23 rigging/tuning questions should be addressed to Cliff Ruckstuhl. He raced the 23 successfully for about 5 years. I got my mast tension techniques from him. I not as serious as he in that adding bulkheads and moving chain plates are a little out of my league. If you can get his attention, he's a wealth of information and experience. He's moved up to a 25.5 now but still in the list.
Serious 23 rigging/tuning questions should be addressed to Cliff Ruckstuhl. He raced the 23 successfully for about 5 years. I got my mast tension techniques from him. I not as serious as he in that adding bulkheads and moving chain plates are a little out of my league. If you can get his attention, he's a wealth of information and experience. He's moved up to a 25.5 now but still in the list.
Manual
Call Hunter They will send you a photo copy for $15.00 The pictures don't turn out very good, but it is still a big help and lets you know about everything. If Hunter really wanted to be impressive with owners manuals, they would scan all the pages then just email it to us when we ordered it. They could use Acrobat Reader (free). Then their manuals would be in color and just like the original
Call Hunter They will send you a photo copy for $15.00 The pictures don't turn out very good, but it is still a big help and lets you know about everything. If Hunter really wanted to be impressive with owners manuals, they would scan all the pages then just email it to us when we ordered it. They could use Acrobat Reader (free). Then their manuals would be in color and just like the original
Mast Tuning
When the shrouds are slack on the leward side that means the rig is moving. Have you ever noticed the shrouds go real slack in a strong puff? When the rig moves somthing gives. Rig falure comes from things either moving around or somthing breaking. No were not sailing Americas Cup boats where the rig is as tight as the boat will allow, but we do want to keep the boat on its feet. When we are sailing in 15 to 20 knots with a 98% or a 110 and going to weather we need to keep the boat flat inorder to keep the boat moving. A flat as possible head sail is a must so we trim it in real hard and crank on the back stay if we have allot of leward sag we are putting a round entry shape into the headsail instead of a knife like entry. If you think about it when the rig is slack on one side and you tack it may move 6 to 10 inches from side to side at the top of the mast so it goes from no tension to full tension in the time it takes to tack. I raced the 23 for about 6 years and did real well with the boat. I had about 6 inches of mast rack and about 11/2 inches of mast bend. When I sailed in about 15 knots of breeze with the 98% I would have no leward slack at all I would get just a tad in the puffs around 18 to 20 knots. Because the 23 has a little keel she must be featherd when going to weather in the windy stuff and to constantly play the traveler. I was able to point as high as other boats that were drafting around 5 feet. But I had to really keep the boat moving. There are two different rigs on the boats the Kenyon Mast (The Heavy White one and the Z Spar that was tapered)I had the Kenyon mast. Also ther are boats with 36" spreaders and some with 27" spreaders. This will play a big part in trying to point high with the wide spreaders you are not able to get the 150% head sail in far enough with out destroying its shape because of the upper shroud. In order to get the boat to point you need to have as good angle for the head sail some boats have ther track installed in the wrong spot. Have you noticed that you are not able to point as high as other boats? Or when you race you will be in good shape after the reaching legs only to get hammered on the long up wind leg? This boat can be a rocket it took me about 4 years to figure it out and when I did It was a real fast boat. I raced in a mixed fleet of boats Catalina 22 & 25 Oday 23& 25 A Capri 26 Oday 26&27 and most of the time would beat the other boats boat for boat with out the Handicap so the boat is fast. Cliff
When the shrouds are slack on the leward side that means the rig is moving. Have you ever noticed the shrouds go real slack in a strong puff? When the rig moves somthing gives. Rig falure comes from things either moving around or somthing breaking. No were not sailing Americas Cup boats where the rig is as tight as the boat will allow, but we do want to keep the boat on its feet. When we are sailing in 15 to 20 knots with a 98% or a 110 and going to weather we need to keep the boat flat inorder to keep the boat moving. A flat as possible head sail is a must so we trim it in real hard and crank on the back stay if we have allot of leward sag we are putting a round entry shape into the headsail instead of a knife like entry. If you think about it when the rig is slack on one side and you tack it may move 6 to 10 inches from side to side at the top of the mast so it goes from no tension to full tension in the time it takes to tack. I raced the 23 for about 6 years and did real well with the boat. I had about 6 inches of mast rack and about 11/2 inches of mast bend. When I sailed in about 15 knots of breeze with the 98% I would have no leward slack at all I would get just a tad in the puffs around 18 to 20 knots. Because the 23 has a little keel she must be featherd when going to weather in the windy stuff and to constantly play the traveler. I was able to point as high as other boats that were drafting around 5 feet. But I had to really keep the boat moving. There are two different rigs on the boats the Kenyon Mast (The Heavy White one and the Z Spar that was tapered)I had the Kenyon mast. Also ther are boats with 36" spreaders and some with 27" spreaders. This will play a big part in trying to point high with the wide spreaders you are not able to get the 150% head sail in far enough with out destroying its shape because of the upper shroud. In order to get the boat to point you need to have as good angle for the head sail some boats have ther track installed in the wrong spot. Have you noticed that you are not able to point as high as other boats? Or when you race you will be in good shape after the reaching legs only to get hammered on the long up wind leg? This boat can be a rocket it took me about 4 years to figure it out and when I did It was a real fast boat. I raced in a mixed fleet of boats Catalina 22 & 25 Oday 23& 25 A Capri 26 Oday 26&27 and most of the time would beat the other boats boat for boat with out the Handicap so the boat is fast. Cliff
Roller Furler and tuning the rigging?
After reading all the posted responses I am not sure as to the proper sequence of tuning the rigging. I just returned my 84' wing keel hunter 23 to the water after doing bottom job, some minor hull repairs, main sail repair and full battens and the installation of an roller furler. Prior to this I have always had excessive weather healm. During the installation of the roller furler I discovered that my rake had been set back. So after standing my rig back up I tightned everything back up. The mast and track are straight and I appear to have about 4"-6" of aft bend above the spreaders. My question is "what is the proper sequence of tuning the rig". Also what is the correct tension on the shrouds? I am still in the process of rigging my furler so I have not been able to sail it yet. Any suggestion or comments??
After reading all the posted responses I am not sure as to the proper sequence of tuning the rigging. I just returned my 84' wing keel hunter 23 to the water after doing bottom job, some minor hull repairs, main sail repair and full battens and the installation of an roller furler. Prior to this I have always had excessive weather healm. During the installation of the roller furler I discovered that my rake had been set back. So after standing my rig back up I tightned everything back up. The mast and track are straight and I appear to have about 4"-6" of aft bend above the spreaders. My question is "what is the proper sequence of tuning the rig". Also what is the correct tension on the shrouds? I am still in the process of rigging my furler so I have not been able to sail it yet. Any suggestion or comments??
Response to Tom
Set-up your rig using the owner's manual first, then get back in touch with Cliff. He knows what he's talking about. Popeye
Set-up your rig using the owner's manual first, then get back in touch with Cliff. He knows what he's talking about. Popeye
Tom Brown -
I agree with Popeye to a point. If you've got a Z-Spar rather than a Kenyon mast then Cliff's consul will have to be tempered accordingly. According to Hunter, Z-Spar was the orginal mast of choice for the 23. It was only after Z-Spar went belly-up in a botched move to increase capacity that Hunter went to the heaver and less flexable Kenyon mast. Beneteau also used Z-Spar durring that same time period if that tells you anything. Go look at a mid 80's Beneteau 235 and say hello to you mast and boom. While you're there, check out the back stay adjuster on the Beneteau. The adjuster is the backstay! (no split) The point is Z-Spars were built to flex alot more than Kenyons and you can REALLY flex Z-Spars. With Cliff's advice in mind, use your flex advantage rather than pure rake and play your adjustable backstay to full benefit. You've got a lot of "adjustment" capability -use it! My 88 23 has netural helm under almost all conditions because I can move my apparent mast rake from about 0 degrees thru 8 degrees with the BSA. I think that's what the orginal Hunter 23 designer had in mind befor Z-Spar went belly-up.
I agree with Popeye to a point. If you've got a Z-Spar rather than a Kenyon mast then Cliff's consul will have to be tempered accordingly. According to Hunter, Z-Spar was the orginal mast of choice for the 23. It was only after Z-Spar went belly-up in a botched move to increase capacity that Hunter went to the heaver and less flexable Kenyon mast. Beneteau also used Z-Spar durring that same time period if that tells you anything. Go look at a mid 80's Beneteau 235 and say hello to you mast and boom. While you're there, check out the back stay adjuster on the Beneteau. The adjuster is the backstay! (no split) The point is Z-Spars were built to flex alot more than Kenyons and you can REALLY flex Z-Spars. With Cliff's advice in mind, use your flex advantage rather than pure rake and play your adjustable backstay to full benefit. You've got a lot of "adjustment" capability -use it! My 88 23 has netural helm under almost all conditions because I can move my apparent mast rake from about 0 degrees thru 8 degrees with the BSA. I think that's what the orginal Hunter 23 designer had in mind befor Z-Spar went belly-up.
H23 mast rake for Greg S
Greg: Now I feel really ignorant. Per Cliff R, I need (among other things) to take out some of my mast rake to reduce my considerable weather helm. Right now I have about 8 inches of rake and my rig stands out from all the other boats in the marina. Now, if I understand you correctly, I need to tighten up the backstay to get rid a neutral helm. Doesn't that give me even more rake? I have the Z-Spar mast and the 36 inch spreaders, and I won't be moving my chainplates inboard any time soon. BTW, thanks for the tips on De Plane. I had no idea that these feats were possible with an H23. It sounds like a blast. I'm on my way to the bathroom... Peter s/v Raven
Greg: Now I feel really ignorant. Per Cliff R, I need (among other things) to take out some of my mast rake to reduce my considerable weather helm. Right now I have about 8 inches of rake and my rig stands out from all the other boats in the marina. Now, if I understand you correctly, I need to tighten up the backstay to get rid a neutral helm. Doesn't that give me even more rake? I have the Z-Spar mast and the 36 inch spreaders, and I won't be moving my chainplates inboard any time soon. BTW, thanks for the tips on De Plane. I had no idea that these feats were possible with an H23. It sounds like a blast. I'm on my way to the bathroom... Peter s/v Raven
Peter - Tuning notes
Peter, I am the last person who should give advice on mast/boat tuning. To tell you the truth, a large part of my technique involves sailing back and forth in front of our marina with a patient sailing buddy while I tighten, loosen, stare, move etc.. Then back to the slip to start more mods. When it’s finally right, I try to burn the exact image of everything into my mind. Real scientific uh? Having said that, straighten your mast back up. Use either dead straight or 2-3 degrees of rake as a starting point. Tighten shrouds per previous instructions. Make sure you BSA is in good working order and go sailing. If you have weather helm, crank on the backstay and see if it goes away or diminishes. If it doesn’t go away but only lesions then back to the slip for a degree or two more rake and head out again. Continue the process until you can dial out the weather helm and still have some adjustment available. A few notes on planing 1.It took me a few tries to get it to work but I started from nothing. 2. When I finally hit it right, my first thought was not “YES!”. It was “Oh crap! The keel’s fallen off!” 3. Sail speed is as addictive as hell. 4. As you come up on plane, try to angle off a bit or you’ll hit the next wave fairly hard and get really wet. Greg
Peter, I am the last person who should give advice on mast/boat tuning. To tell you the truth, a large part of my technique involves sailing back and forth in front of our marina with a patient sailing buddy while I tighten, loosen, stare, move etc.. Then back to the slip to start more mods. When it’s finally right, I try to burn the exact image of everything into my mind. Real scientific uh? Having said that, straighten your mast back up. Use either dead straight or 2-3 degrees of rake as a starting point. Tighten shrouds per previous instructions. Make sure you BSA is in good working order and go sailing. If you have weather helm, crank on the backstay and see if it goes away or diminishes. If it doesn’t go away but only lesions then back to the slip for a degree or two more rake and head out again. Continue the process until you can dial out the weather helm and still have some adjustment available. A few notes on planing 1.It took me a few tries to get it to work but I started from nothing. 2. When I finally hit it right, my first thought was not “YES!”. It was “Oh crap! The keel’s fallen off!” 3. Sail speed is as addictive as hell. 4. As you come up on plane, try to angle off a bit or you’ll hit the next wave fairly hard and get really wet. Greg
Everyone
More mast rake gives you weather helm. I think you guys are right on the Z-Spar I have no experence with that rig. A buddy had a 26.5 with that rig and it was allot more flexible. I do know there was no consintency in the way the boats were rigged my backstay all the way out still left me with about 10 to 12 inches of rake. So by taken out the split and installing a adjuster I was able to get the mast forward to the desired 6" of rake. This is what I found that worked on my boat. At the time I had the only 23 on the lake and there was'nt any other boat to compare it to or to try and do some speed testing with. I was also spending allot of time on the phone with my sailmaker trying to get his input on where other fractional rigs were. Cliff
More mast rake gives you weather helm. I think you guys are right on the Z-Spar I have no experence with that rig. A buddy had a 26.5 with that rig and it was allot more flexible. I do know there was no consintency in the way the boats were rigged my backstay all the way out still left me with about 10 to 12 inches of rake. So by taken out the split and installing a adjuster I was able to get the mast forward to the desired 6" of rake. This is what I found that worked on my boat. At the time I had the only 23 on the lake and there was'nt any other boat to compare it to or to try and do some speed testing with. I was also spending allot of time on the phone with my sailmaker trying to get his input on where other fractional rigs were. Cliff
Yo Cliff, Variations..
Yo Cliff, No lie on the 23’s rigging variations. As close a I can figure, There were 23s with Z-Spar masts and 36 and /or 27 inch spreaders with different chain plate locations. At the same time there were at least 2 different mast step arrangements. The aluminum castings mast step and the sheet metal version with some actual lateral support. Then there were the Kenyon masted boats. I have an 88’ with Z-Spar mast/boom, 27 inch spreaders/chain plates and cast aluminum mast step. I was considering these variations last weekend as I sat on my 23’s lazarat. You know, the one just in front of the mizzen mast when I noticed the port outrigger was riding a little low….. How are the rest of you guys rigged?? Greg
Yo Cliff, No lie on the 23’s rigging variations. As close a I can figure, There were 23s with Z-Spar masts and 36 and /or 27 inch spreaders with different chain plate locations. At the same time there were at least 2 different mast step arrangements. The aluminum castings mast step and the sheet metal version with some actual lateral support. Then there were the Kenyon masted boats. I have an 88’ with Z-Spar mast/boom, 27 inch spreaders/chain plates and cast aluminum mast step. I was considering these variations last weekend as I sat on my 23’s lazarat. You know, the one just in front of the mizzen mast when I noticed the port outrigger was riding a little low….. How are the rest of you guys rigged?? Greg
You Guys Are Great!!!
If only there was this much info when I had the 23. It makes me almost want to find another one and start racing again. If only there was this much input on the 25.5 site. Everybody interest in this has been incredible Is'nt it just Great that we have this kind of a following on the 23. Even though I no longer sail the 23 I am glad I am able to help others in ther pursuit for speed. Good sails and a fast bottem and the 23 will fly. Was it just me or did Italy forget to show up for the Americas Cup? Cliff
If only there was this much info when I had the 23. It makes me almost want to find another one and start racing again. If only there was this much input on the 25.5 site. Everybody interest in this has been incredible Is'nt it just Great that we have this kind of a following on the 23. Even though I no longer sail the 23 I am glad I am able to help others in ther pursuit for speed. Good sails and a fast bottem and the 23 will fly. Was it just me or did Italy forget to show up for the Americas Cup? Cliff
for something different in masts...
Speaking of variety in masts, my '86 h23 has a "France" mast with 36" spreaders, which makes three known brands. Not knowing any better, I followed the instructions in the manual on tuning the rig (Mikey, if you can't get one from Hunter, call me at 541-345-2802, during working hours, I'll fax or copy and mail you the manual). The manual states, in part, set headstay turnbuckle at 1/2 open, then tighten backstay to medium tension. Starting with slight tension on uppers and lowers, check to see that the mast is centered athwartships by hoisting a steel tape to the masthead and measuring to the chainplates. Then tension uppers equally counting turnbuckle revolutions, until you have approx. 1 inch of pre-bend fore and aft. Now tighten the lowers evenly, counting turn buckle revolutions, sighting the luff groove to ensure the mast remains straight athwartships. Then tighten the backstay to a taut postition, about 8-10 turns. Personally, I crank the forestay in 3/4's of the way, and rely on the backstay adjustor for further fore and aft adjustment of the mast as well as controlling draft in the sails. The France mast is just as bendy as the Z-spar. The manual suggests test sailing in 10-12 knots, sighting the luff groove for straightness, and that the leeward shrouds should not be loose. More or less following these directions has worked pretty well for me. Jim Kolstoe
Speaking of variety in masts, my '86 h23 has a "France" mast with 36" spreaders, which makes three known brands. Not knowing any better, I followed the instructions in the manual on tuning the rig (Mikey, if you can't get one from Hunter, call me at 541-345-2802, during working hours, I'll fax or copy and mail you the manual). The manual states, in part, set headstay turnbuckle at 1/2 open, then tighten backstay to medium tension. Starting with slight tension on uppers and lowers, check to see that the mast is centered athwartships by hoisting a steel tape to the masthead and measuring to the chainplates. Then tension uppers equally counting turnbuckle revolutions, until you have approx. 1 inch of pre-bend fore and aft. Now tighten the lowers evenly, counting turn buckle revolutions, sighting the luff groove to ensure the mast remains straight athwartships. Then tighten the backstay to a taut postition, about 8-10 turns. Personally, I crank the forestay in 3/4's of the way, and rely on the backstay adjustor for further fore and aft adjustment of the mast as well as controlling draft in the sails. The France mast is just as bendy as the Z-spar. The manual suggests test sailing in 10-12 knots, sighting the luff groove for straightness, and that the leeward shrouds should not be loose. More or less following these directions has worked pretty well for me. Jim Kolstoe
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