When to change standing rigging

Dec 15, 2006
139
We still have the original standing rigging on our Vega. The fittings
and wires all seem to be fine. So -- when does one consider changing
it for new standing rigging? So far all we are doing is local sailing
in the San Francisco Bay area, but at some point we want to do some
coastal sailing. No Ocean crossings yet, but maybe in the future.

Larry Bissell
Kemanalea
Hull # 1493
 
Nov 8, 2001
1,818
In the UK our Insurance companies expect (and sometimes demand) that the standing rigging is compeletely replaced every 10 years. Cheers

Steve B
 
Dec 15, 2006
139
Hey Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I am not aware here in the US if insurance
requires that standing rigging be changed every 10 years, or at all
for that matter. I seem to recall that when Chuck Rose had his
rigging failure on the trip from Hawaii last summer, that none of
the original rigging failed, but the forestay, which was not
original failed. Somebody correct me if I am wrong here?? I am not
suggesting that one should neglect to change the rigging if one is
considering crossing the big pond. However, if the rigging seems to
be in good shape, and all the sailing being done is local, is it
really needed? Are there any other vega's out there with the
original standing rigging still standing? Have any vegas had
rigging failures of the original rigging (I know there have been
some failures of the forestay fitting on the stem, but what about
the wire fittings and wires themselves)? Just curious.

Larry Bissell
Kemanalea
SF Bay Area
albinvega1493@...
 
Oct 31, 2019
303
I used to work in a rigging shop and while the incidence of rig failure
isn't that high, but it does happen. In the U.S. I have never heard of any
insurance company requiring new standing rigging at anytime, but that isn't
to say that some might. But after 10 years one should be concerned enough to
have a thorough inspection done. The problem is usually not with the wire
itself, but the swaged fittings. That is unless the there are visible signs
of distress to the wire - broken strands called meat hooks (running your
hand over the wire will tell you why they are so named). The biggest problem
is that water enters the fitting by running down the wire. This can often
lead to corrosion (yes stainless steel does corrode, especially in a tight
fitting or under water). The corrosion often causes an expansion and a crack
in the fitting. Freezing can also put pressure on the fitting as water
inside the fitting expands.



Probably every 10 years, maybe even 5 if the boat is raced or kept with the
rigging up in freezing weather, hire a good rigger to check out everything.
Well if you are careful you can do it yourself, but at least do more than
just a eye ball check. The way the fittings are inspected is often with a
good magnifying glass and sometimes a dye is used. This dye is special
penetrating dye that is put on the fitting and then wiped off. If there are
cracks the red dye will remain in the often hairline crack. Again use a
magnifying class, like a printers loop to check each fitting over very
carefully. On boats that are raced many of the guys do this yearly - but
these are pretty serious racers, not just club racers.



Also check all the mast fittings, especially the hounds where the spreaders
attach to the stick. Also carefully check all the tangs and other attachment
elements. (This is a good time to rebuild the mast winches too). My Vega is
a 1979 and the damage at the hounds was so great both to the fitting and the
mast itself I had to have a new mast built and that took many boat units
since I had all the standing and running rigging also replaced - and I
didn't have time to do it myself (riggers are expensive). I use the same
rigger that Chuck Rose mentioned in Port Townsend, Brion Toss (though I had
worked as operations manager for a different rigging company).



From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Larry Bissell
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:02 PM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: When to change standing rigging



Hey Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I am not aware here in the US if insurance
requires that standing rigging be changed every 10 years, or at all
for that matter. I seem to recall that when Chuck Rose had his
rigging failure on the trip from Hawaii last summer, that none of
the original rigging failed, but the forestay, which was not
original failed. Somebody correct me if I am wrong here?? I am not
suggesting that one should neglect to change the rigging if one is
considering crossing the big pond. However, if the rigging seems to
be in good shape, and all the sailing being done is local, is it
really needed? Are there any other vega's out there with the
original standing rigging still standing? Have any vegas had
rigging failures of the original rigging (I know there have been
some failures of the forestay fitting on the stem, but what about
the wire fittings and wires themselves)? Just curious.

Larry Bissell
Kemanalea
SF Bay Area
albinvega1493@... mailto:albinvega1493%40yahoo.com
 
Oct 31, 2019
562
Hi Larry,
I have my Vega since 1978; about ten years ago one of the turnbuckles failed. I then changed all fittings, but kept the wire. The wires were okay.I cut off all wires at the point of swaging and made new connection (but needed longer turnbuckles and also some extensions.) I guess I'm okay for another ten or more years...
Wilhelm, V-257Larry Bissell albinvega1493@... wrote: Hey Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I am not aware here in the US if insurance
requires that standing rigging be changed every 10 years, or at all
for that matter. I seem to recall that when Chuck Rose had his
rigging failure on the trip from Hawaii last summer, that none of
the original rigging failed, but the forestay, which was not
original failed. Somebody correct me if I am wrong here?? I am not
suggesting that one should neglect to change the rigging if one is
considering crossing the big pond. However, if the rigging seems to
be in good shape, and all the sailing being done is local, is it
really needed? Are there any other vega's out there with the
original standing rigging still standing? Have any vegas had
rigging failures of the original rigging (I know there have been
some failures of the forestay fitting on the stem, but what about
the wire fittings and wires themselves)? Just curious.

Larry Bissell
Kemanalea
SF Bay Area
albinvega1493@...
 
Oct 31, 2019
19
When I had my Vega surveyed prior to purchase last year some of the
swages were listed as problems and I had to have them replaced before
I could obtain insurance for the vessel.
Peter

At 12:35 AM 11/10/2007, you wrote:
 
Nov 13, 2006
5
Hi all

We too have been given an ultimatum from our surveyor/insurance company.
Lyra's rigging is now 9 years old and MUST be replaced before the 2008
sailing season. Even although it all looks in very good condition.

The surveyor has also noted that the deck 'U' bolts are probably the
originals and that we should 'consider' replacement. Again these look
to be in good condition. Has anyone any experience of these bolts
failing? Should we just bite the bullet & replace them with modern
fittings?

John & Carol
Lyra V1364
 
Jul 10, 2009
125
What cost are we looking at to replace all the standing rigging?
should the turnbuckles be replaced with the rigging? Colin V-703
 
Nov 8, 2001
1,818
Hi Colin

Here in the UK the VAGB supply a complete standing rigging with new bottlescrews (turnbuckles) for about £450 ($900)

Cheers

Steve B
 
Jul 6, 2007
106
Hi,

I have taken apart my rigging a few weeks ago, in my
opinion the weakest link (and I think it was designed
like that, at least in my, hull number 1014) are the
backing plates on the chain plate, which are made of
aluminium so they rust with the stainless steel u
bolts.

This is made like that (I presume) because they are
easily replaced and is better than the mast rusting
from ionization at the top.

I also talked to a rigger (retired and apparently 30
years of experience) and recons that he has not seen
or heard of a U bolt break.

Also if you look carefully at the U bolts (in
particular the ones at the forward end of the mast)
this are bent on a particular angle, unless that angle
can be replicated identically I would be very
sceptical about replacing them, furthermore if they
break, they do not break in one go, they start
bending, you should have a bit of time to take
corrective action.

Cheers

Roger
 
Nov 8, 2001
1,818
Hi Roger

Uhmmmmmm. If it fails then believe me it doesnt do it slowly - I know from expereince having lost my forestay and then the mast straight away....

We can also make new chainplates with the correct angle. Made quite a few and supplied them over the years (none in stock at the moment though!)

Cheers

Steve B
 
Oct 31, 2019
19
I have lost the forestay on my vega circa 4 years ago.



It went with an almightily bang, causing further damage to stanchion posts,
mast, sails etc.



The weak link on my boat was the stem head fitting that the forestay
attached to. I have now learnt this is an inherent problem on the Vega's,
thus why the double bow roller has this incorporated into it, made by VAGB -
Much beefier. I found this out after I had a new stem head fitting made
from stainless after the incident - Significantly bigger and stronger!!



I like most other people have replaced all standing rigging, bottle screws
etc as insurance insisted here in the UK.



I also removed the spreader bars from the under side of the deck, checked,
cleaned them up and then re-fitted. As I had the U bolts out, I had these
replaced as well, just for good measure.



I'd say it's equally important to have secure rigging when sailing locally,
as the biggest cause of problems generally when sailing is not the equipment
failure, but the time you have to fix before you hit the land!!!!



Fair winds



Tim







Tim Buckley
Shipshape Services Ltd.

Tel: 023 92 324 500
Fax: 023 92 324 550
Mobile: 07866 622466

http://www.shipshapeservices.co.uk www.shipshapeservices.co.uk

Please note - We have moved office to:

Unit 2
The Slipway
Port Solent
Portsmouth
Hampshire
PO6 4TR

This e-mail and any attachment is intended for the named addressee(s) only,
or a person authorised to receive it on their behalf. The content should be
treated as confidential and the recipient may not disclose this message or
any attachment to anyone else without authorisation. Unauthorised use,
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Company. Shipshape Services Limited (Company Number 4966209) with its
registered office at 2 The Slipway, Port Solent, Hampshire, PO6 4TR England.

_____

From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Steve Birch
Sent: 13 November 2007 13:22
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] When to change standing rigging



Hi Roger

Uhmmmmmm. If it fails then believe me it doesnt do it slowly - I know from
expereince having lost my forestay and then the mast straight away....

We can also make new chainplates with the correct angle. Made quite a few
and supplied them over the years (none in stock at the moment though!)

Cheers

Steve B
 
Oct 19, 2019
921
Albin Vega 27 Limerick
Hi Tim,
did the stem head fitting fail - or did the forestay itself actually fail?

A (non-Vegan) friend had his forestay fail - the strands unlaid at the
masthead swivel mechanism - weakening the stay enough for it to break
under load..

Thanks,

John

V 1447 Breakaway

John A. Kinsella Ph: +353-61-202148 (Direct)
+353-61-333644 x 2148 (Switch)
Mathematics Dept. e-mail: John.Kinsella@...
University of Limerick FAX: +353-61-334927
IRELAND Web: John Kinsella's Website
 
Nov 8, 2001
1,818
Tim's forestay plate failed, not the actual rigging wire. Same thing happened to me a few years before! Believe me it was quite a shock to see teh mast tumble down in slow motion.

Cheers

Steve B
 
Oct 2, 2005
465
I think there is another possible location for a forestay to
fail. Last year I removed the furling headsail (Profurl)and went back
to hanked on jibs, and while at the top of the mast I was a bit
surprised to find that part of the hardware was slowly unscrewing
itself. I forget just what part it was but it could be worth checking
occasionally.
Craig
-- In AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Birch" steve@... wrote:
 
Jul 6, 2007
106
Hi Steve,

The thing is that the chain plate on the forestay is
different than the U bolts; the U bolts should not
suddenly break, before giving a warning.

The problem with the forestay is that the Vega was not
design to have rollerfurlers on the forestay unless
the chain plate was beefed up.

I would have thought that part of every ones job
before going out is having a look at the rigging just
after getting the weather forecast.

Cheers

Roger
 
Nov 8, 2001
1,818
Been quite a few with this chainplate failure without furling gear! They fail coz they are 35 - 40 years old and not quite up to the specification now expected on stainless fittings. I would check yours seeing youve bashed it a few times at Ryde!!

Cheers

Steve B
 
Apr 28, 2000
691
I have just completed re-rigging Lealea with help and advice from Port
Townsend Rigging and Brion Toss. The last time I did this, I read
Brion's Book, "The Riggers Apprentice" and got some help from the
boatyard in Honolulu. This time we replaced all the wire, of course,
but re-used all the turnbuckles, toggles and Sta-Lok wire terminal
fittings.

After I removed all of the hardware from the old wires Laura and I
cleaned and polished all the pieces and examined them with a
magnifying glass for cracks and deep pitting from corrosion. We also
performed this operation on the chainplates. Where something looked
questionable to us we had the rigger at PT examine the item.
Everything passed inspection and was re-used. We did elect to increase
the size of the headstay to 1/4 inch on the advice of the riggers.
Although I am aware of nothing in the history of the many Vegas out
there that would indicate that this would be necessary, I feel a bit
more secure.

The stem fitting was another matter. The holes had become elongated
and it just looked weak. The riggers at PT advised me to take it to a
machine shop where the machinist popped the triangular plate loose in
an alarmingly short time. When he showed the pieces to me I was
appalled at how little metal was holding my mast up at the stem
fitting and how much corrosion had worked its way in under the welds.
I would like to have replaced the whole thing with one of Steve's
anchor roller setups but we eletced to have a new fitting fabricated here.

Cost of new 316 SS wire: US$373 including Washington state tax.
Fabricationand welding of new stem fitting of 316 SS plate: US$100

We also had problems with our halyards chafing at the masthead and the
sheaves have always been noisy. On examination we found that the
fiber bushings had become worn and dried out and the sheaves corroded
and rough so we replaced the old aluminum wire/rope "V" groove sheaves
with new "U" groove delrin sheaves with oilite bronze bushings. These
will be kinder to our all-rope halyards, quieter and smoother in
operation.

We are at last nearing the end of our re-fitting; two thirds of the
interior replaced, mast reconditioned and re-rigged, new lifelines,
new polycarbonate windows fabricated and installed and more, so I
expect to have time to publish full details with photos and even video
after we get back in the water and settle in for the winter.

Malie ke kai

Chuck Rose
SV Lealea, V1860
 
Oct 31, 2019
19
The forestay was only circa 3 years old when the incident happened John.



It was the fixed chain plate on the deck that failed.



Fair winds



Tim



Tim Buckley
Shipshape Services Ltd.

Tel: 023 92 324 500
Fax: 023 92 324 550
Mobile: 07866 622466

http://www.shipshapeservices.co.uk www.shipshapeservices.co.uk

Please note - We have moved office to:

Unit 2
The Slipway
Port Solent
Portsmouth
Hampshire
PO6 4TR

This e-mail and any attachment is intended for the named addressee(s) only,
or a person authorised to receive it on their behalf. The content should be
treated as confidential and the recipient may not disclose this message or
any attachment to anyone else without authorisation. Unauthorised use,
copying or disclosure may be unlawful. If this transmission is received in
error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your
e-mail system. Any view expressed by the sender of this message or any
attachment may be personal and may not represent the view held by the
Company. Shipshape Services Limited (Company Number 4966209) with its
registered office at 2 The Slipway, Port Solent, Hampshire, PO6 4TR England.

_____

From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of John A. Kinsella
Sent: 14 November 2007 21:44
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AlbinVega] When to change standing rigging



Hi Tim,
did the stem head fitting fail - or did the forestay itself actually fail?

A (non-Vegan) friend had his forestay fail - the strands unlaid at the
masthead swivel mechanism - weakening the stay enough for it to break
under load..

Thanks,

John

V 1447 Breakaway

John A. Kinsella Ph: +353-61-202148 (Direct)
+353-61-333644 x 2148 (Switch)
Mathematics Dept. e-mail: John.Kinsella@ mailto:John.Kinsella%40ul.ie
ul.ie
University of Limerick FAX: +353-61-334927
IRELAND Web: http://jkcray. John Kinsella's Website maths.ul.ie