Wheel Conversion
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It does look good. Heavenly, in fact. Given the choice of your sailboat as pictured with a well thought out wheel helm, or a stick poking me in the ribs on every turn, I would vote helm, hands down. Boils down to personal preference. Could not wait to get away from a tiller to a wheel.
Joe, what do you sail? Tiller, wheel? You feel a wheel is harder to sail, than a tiller run with your knees? My Edson helm has a brake knob I can feather adjust to steer one handed and let go to work anything else needed. How is a stick in your knees better than that?
I find many times, people support what it is they use. Not me, when I had a tiller, I bitched to everyone that would listen, I wanted a wheel. Now that I have a wheel, I am thoroughly pleased
Just added a pedestal guard to my Edson, and that completes the package well. Odd several owners over 35+ years never ordered a pedestal guard before I installed one. Funny, odd, even strange, how people don't make the best of situations, even over decades. I found walking around the pediststal difficult to maintain my balance. The compass top is light weight, and you cannot push against that, and the wheel moves, giving no real stability. The pedestal guard would seem to me to be a necessity and not so much an option.
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I think its fair to say a Catalina 22 and a Seward 23 have much different size cockpits
For those of you who have retro-fitted smaller boats with wheel steering, how do you deal with installation of the emergency tiller? It would seem to me that finding enough room for an emergency tiller would be very problematic.
Interesting thought and I agree it sure looks like it but how much different are they? I dug a little deeper and here's what I have.
Comparing the dimensions of the cockpit sole L x W
Catalina 22 = 6' 10" x 1' 10"
Seaward 23 = 6' 8" x 2' 3"
The numbers are the numbers. I'm offering no opinion whether or not the dimensions are comparable, similar or 'much' different. The discussion evolved into the aesthetics of wheel steering on a boat of that size and bigpapaporsche's picture really caught my attention, others too. One comment asked if it was a Catalina 30.
Since it was mentioned, C-30 cockpit sole L x W
Catalina 30 = 6' 0" x 2' 0"
Okay, I'm taking back the 'no opinion' statement. It seems to me they're all similar. I'd say naval architects fit cockpits to people dimensions rather than boat lengths.
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IF (and its a big IF) I wanted to do a wheel conversion, I'd look at the teleflex push/pull cable type vs the cable/ quadrant type... mostly due to the space needed for the more traditional wheel.
I had a tiller on my Oday 20, and now I have a wheel on my Helms 25. Most of the other Helms that I see still have a tiller. The lost of room in the cockpit is not a factor as there is still plenty of room for those that are 6'2", like myself, and taller. I have a 30" emergence handle that is carried with me. The gentleman that had the wheel put in did a wonderful job. He used two dog-toothed shafts to turn the hydralic cable thats connected to the rudder. The rudder is a easily disconnected and removed when the boat is trailered. when I compare the two, the tiller and the wheel, I enjoy the wheel the most. I dont hane an autopilot and mostly sail single-handed. Even if I am in front of the aft facing wheel, tacking or whatever, it seems to be no problem. Weigh all your options and make your choice...
If anyone has ever seen a Stevenson Project "Weekender" you would take note that this little 16' Friendship Sloop indeed has wheel steering. Due to the limited space in the cockpit, the wheel takes up less room than a tiller which is understandable with a boat that size, I think.
With that said though, a tiller on a 22' sloop has it's advantages, at least on my boat anyway. I've grown used to using an Autohellm ST 1000+ on my boat. These autopilots are running around $440.00 in West Marine. An autopilot for wheel steering would cost a heck of a lot more money than that. They go for big bucks on a wheel steering boat. I'm not knocking wheel steering but this alone would be something I would certainly take into consideration when deciding on a choice of steering because having had one on my boat for many years I've grown spoiled. I just won't sail my boat without an autopilot.
With that said though, a tiller on a 22' sloop has it's advantages, at least on my boat anyway. I've grown used to using an Autohellm ST 1000+ on my boat. These autopilots are running around $440.00 in West Marine. An autopilot for wheel steering would cost a heck of a lot more money than that. They go for big bucks on a wheel steering boat. I'm not knocking wheel steering but this alone would be something I would certainly take into consideration when deciding on a choice of steering because having had one on my boat for many years I've grown spoiled. I just won't sail my boat without an autopilot.
Locking the wheel is quite different than actually steering the boat. I use a tiller pilot to keep the boat on course if I want to leave the helm. But I can actually tack or jibe the boat, luff up, fall off or head up while handling sheet or halyard..... while steering with my knees. In addition I have a number of positions in the cockpit I can steer from when I attach an extension to the tiller... I can tuck up behind the bulkhead, hike out on the coaming with the lifeline as a backrest, I can move to leeward and forward to get a good look under the foot of the headsail or see all the tell tales when making trim adjustments. Lots more options, you see.
I have sailed a number of larger boats like yours that I wouldn't think of using a tiller... the leverage needed to control the larger rudder would mean an unreasonably long handle ... and on a narrow boat with a smaller center cockpit such as yours.. it would be totally impractical. Here is where a wheel makes perfect sense.
On a smaller boat, however, where crew weight placement is much more critical than larger yachts, the tiller allows the driver to be part of the ballast positioning... rather than being relegated to the very back of the boat.
That said, in the end it is all about what you, the boat owner wants.... and no one can say you're wrong.... but.... we all have opinions about function and form regarding this issue (and many others, too) It is simply my feeling that a wheel on a small boat is neither as functional as a tiller, nor is it as beautiful. (but hey, Old Skool Neil's set up looks pretty cool, so there are exceptions)
Joe, I own two CM 32's, one tiller, one Edson wheel helm. The tiller I sailed only once, due to engine issues. When I had her on the lake, in 15 mph winds, she sailed very simular to my Mac 25 tiller. Could not tell any discernable differences, except the CM 32 was noticeably faster than the shorter Mac.
Going big, or going small, there becomes a point where you go wheel, or tiller. In the grey area, there a boat is not small, and is not big, is a place where both can be used. My 32's are examples of that. The Crealock 37's had a wheel, but two owners contacted Crealock to ask him if they could convert to a tiller because they handled so well. True story, that makes no sense to me at all. If the boats handled well, why not let them handle well with the factory supplied wheel?
It all boils down to what people want. Some date blonds, others prefer jet black hair.
To me the wheel, is where the fun of sailing finally settles in. Some work and preparation goes into sailing. When it all comes together, and it is just you and the wind, who do you want to share that moment with, a tiller, or a wheel? For me, the tiller has no romance, no fun. Even at the docks, walking past other sailboats, some call to you, others don't.
My wife can steer my wheel, but she is overwhelmed by the tiller, as if it is something mystical. Maybe she is right. Last day on the lake, we used a ramp on the other side of the lake to recover the boat, and for something different, I gave her the wheel. She motored all the way across. About a half hour (small lake). I could never gotten her to do that with a tiller. She would have refused.
First time I sailed my Crealock wheel helm, I knew I finally had what I had wanted. Needed. It filled something inside of me, like the two masts made me feel good, the wheel also completed the picture.
Sailing is not just numbers on a slide rule. It is music without notes. It is the balance on a fine chefs knife, or the sound of a tuned exhaust.
Going big, or going small, there becomes a point where you go wheel, or tiller. In the grey area, there a boat is not small, and is not big, is a place where both can be used. My 32's are examples of that. The Crealock 37's had a wheel, but two owners contacted Crealock to ask him if they could convert to a tiller because they handled so well. True story, that makes no sense to me at all. If the boats handled well, why not let them handle well with the factory supplied wheel?
It all boils down to what people want. Some date blonds, others prefer jet black hair.
To me the wheel, is where the fun of sailing finally settles in. Some work and preparation goes into sailing. When it all comes together, and it is just you and the wind, who do you want to share that moment with, a tiller, or a wheel? For me, the tiller has no romance, no fun. Even at the docks, walking past other sailboats, some call to you, others don't.
My wife can steer my wheel, but she is overwhelmed by the tiller, as if it is something mystical. Maybe she is right. Last day on the lake, we used a ramp on the other side of the lake to recover the boat, and for something different, I gave her the wheel. She motored all the way across. About a half hour (small lake). I could never gotten her to do that with a tiller. She would have refused.
First time I sailed my Crealock wheel helm, I knew I finally had what I had wanted. Needed. It filled something inside of me, like the two masts made me feel good, the wheel also completed the picture.
Sailing is not just numbers on a slide rule. It is music without notes. It is the balance on a fine chefs knife, or the sound of a tuned exhaust.
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Okay, for the third time and to be certain I'm not incorrectly credited, the picture I posted of the gorgeous Seaward 23 cockpit with the wheel IS NOT MINE!! It belongs to bigpapaporsche. He posted it earlier in this thread. I included it in my post as an example contrary to some of the negative comments on the subject.
About bigger boats and tillers, I'd suggest sailing on several before forming conclusions. My Catalina 30 had a tiller when I bought her and I freely admit she was a bear to handle under sail and worse under power, more than I was willing to tolerate. The mechanical advantage of a wheel has made sailing her much more pleasant.
My previous boat was a Westsail 32, 24,000# displacement, probably 27,000# loaded, 32' on deck, 42' overall, full keel, outboard rudder and tiller steered, easily tiller steered. With a cutter rig and a hollow cut leach in the main she was well balanced and required little more than a fingertip touch. So why the difference? The Westsail was a far bigger boat in terms of rig and displacement but was much gentler on the tiller. It's a matter of balance, the relative positions of the center of effort and the center of lateral resistance.
The arguments against the original poster's thoughts of a wheel on a Catalina 22 started with aesthetics, questioned the available space on a smaller boat, drifted to the typical wheel vs. tiller discussion and now relative brutish force a tiller requires based solely on boat size. What I'm trying to say is it's not necessarily the size of the boat that determines the suitability of a particular steering system. I've also shown cockpit sizes of certain smaller boats (where wheels have been eschewed in this thread) and larger boats (where wheels are widely accepted as the norm) are roughly the same size.
I think more reasonable arguments in favor of a tiller would be budget and simplicity but what it really boils down to is the preference of the owner and I think New 2-22s made it clear in the first post he wanted a wheel.
About bigger boats and tillers, I'd suggest sailing on several before forming conclusions. My Catalina 30 had a tiller when I bought her and I freely admit she was a bear to handle under sail and worse under power, more than I was willing to tolerate. The mechanical advantage of a wheel has made sailing her much more pleasant.
My previous boat was a Westsail 32, 24,000# displacement, probably 27,000# loaded, 32' on deck, 42' overall, full keel, outboard rudder and tiller steered, easily tiller steered. With a cutter rig and a hollow cut leach in the main she was well balanced and required little more than a fingertip touch. So why the difference? The Westsail was a far bigger boat in terms of rig and displacement but was much gentler on the tiller. It's a matter of balance, the relative positions of the center of effort and the center of lateral resistance.
The arguments against the original poster's thoughts of a wheel on a Catalina 22 started with aesthetics, questioned the available space on a smaller boat, drifted to the typical wheel vs. tiller discussion and now relative brutish force a tiller requires based solely on boat size. What I'm trying to say is it's not necessarily the size of the boat that determines the suitability of a particular steering system. I've also shown cockpit sizes of certain smaller boats (where wheels have been eschewed in this thread) and larger boats (where wheels are widely accepted as the norm) are roughly the same size.
I think more reasonable arguments in favor of a tiller would be budget and simplicity but what it really boils down to is the preference of the owner and I think New 2-22s made it clear in the first post he wanted a wheel.
The wheel still wouldn't be a substitute for an autopilot. A boat that size is going to change direction every time you move. So you still need an auto. I swear by my Raymarine ST 1000.... the best $400 I have ever spent as far as boat accessories go.
How about cutting 6 inches off of the tiller and buying a tiller extension? Might free up some knee room, plus you aren't trapped behind it then.
How about cutting 6 inches off of the tiller and buying a tiller extension? Might free up some knee room, plus you aren't trapped behind it then.
While I prefer a wheel over a tiller, I also prefer a factory wheel ten to one over any conversion. Why? Cost, appearance, design, function.
Converting his current sailboat, unless done correctly, will make it sail worse, make it look worse just setting at the dock, and make it impossible to resell. Might as well set fire to your money, as you would never get it back.
I purchased everything to convert my Mac to a Destroyer wheel, and got cold feet realizing what I was about to do.
You have an apple you are not quite pleased with, shine it up real good, take it to town and sell it. Then climb the apple tree again, and pick the apple you really want. Do you really want a 22' sailboat? Do you really not want a private head? Do you really not want a private cabin? Do you really not want a galley? By looking over what you really want, it is possible, like me, what you really want is a completely different sailboat.
Bon Appetit.
Converting his current sailboat, unless done correctly, will make it sail worse, make it look worse just setting at the dock, and make it impossible to resell. Might as well set fire to your money, as you would never get it back.
I purchased everything to convert my Mac to a Destroyer wheel, and got cold feet realizing what I was about to do.
You have an apple you are not quite pleased with, shine it up real good, take it to town and sell it. Then climb the apple tree again, and pick the apple you really want. Do you really want a 22' sailboat? Do you really not want a private head? Do you really not want a private cabin? Do you really not want a galley? By looking over what you really want, it is possible, like me, what you really want is a completely different sailboat.
Bon Appetit.
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Before I respond, please clarify the difference. Is it the equipment, the installation or both? Do you have an opinion on the Seaward 23 installation, factory or conversion? What about this one? Careful, might be a trick question.
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Nobody says it's gotta be a small boat to tiller one. I think this one is Popeye, similar to Terrorist.
Sure oughta rethink that trim though...
Sure oughta rethink that trim though...
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Should have said backyard conversion. Get Edson on the line, do everything the way they tell you, with the correct parts, tools, experience, and it should be OK. O by the way, the sanarieo just described, doubles, tripples the investment (not value) of most smaller boats. If you can locate the correct used parts, that still work, and you do the work yourself, you still spend a month or three, you could be sailing.Before I respond, please clarify the difference. Is it the equipment, the installation or both? Do you have an opinion on the Seaward 23 installation, factory or conversion? What about this one? Careful, might be a trick question.
Actually, I never said ALL larger boats should have wheels instead of tillers.... so your comment was unnecessary..... but interesting, nonetheless.
Sail 123 - I commend your honest assessment regarding your previous wheel steering project. A conversion can be daunting but it can be done by an amateur and depending on the skill set, done well. The guys that install them at the factory are at the upper end of the labor force technically speaking, much like the engine installers but that does not mean they're watchmaker caliber. Often they are the same guys (engines and steering system installers).
Here's how my question may have been a trick. The pictured Catalina 30 Kalina is my boat. It came with a tiller and I installed the pedestal. In taking on the project I had two advantages: One, the parts were available for a great price, like 10% of new. I purchased the entire system from a salvor off a Gulf Coast hurricane damaged boat, a sunken Catalina 30. Two, experience. I've installed around 50 such systems in my history. I worked at four different sailboat manufacturers in the 70's and pedestal steering was one of my specialties. I'm not suggesting wheel steering cannot or should not be installed by an inexperienced owner, some of these guys do terrific work but you are correct, experience is a plus. This experience is a big part of why I've been so interested in this thread.
Joe - I expected . . . uh, that's why I quoted . . . aw, never mind.
Here's how my question may have been a trick. The pictured Catalina 30 Kalina is my boat. It came with a tiller and I installed the pedestal. In taking on the project I had two advantages: One, the parts were available for a great price, like 10% of new. I purchased the entire system from a salvor off a Gulf Coast hurricane damaged boat, a sunken Catalina 30. Two, experience. I've installed around 50 such systems in my history. I worked at four different sailboat manufacturers in the 70's and pedestal steering was one of my specialties. I'm not suggesting wheel steering cannot or should not be installed by an inexperienced owner, some of these guys do terrific work but you are correct, experience is a plus. This experience is a big part of why I've been so interested in this thread.
Joe - I expected . . . uh, that's why I quoted . . . aw, never mind.
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