What qualifies as “advanced”; when rating sailing ability?

[Kings Gambit]

KG is this an exercise in hypothetical planning or preparation for a flotilla you plan to lead? Just curious.

Two questions to ask any future participant:

1) How many tubes of 5200 have you bought and used?

2) How many things on the boat are bedded in silicone sealant, you know the cheap smelly kind?

Hi Dave,

I’m not planning on leading, or attempting to lead, a sailboat flotilla anywhere far, anytime soon. If I were, it would not be a large one; maybe 4 boats, all monohulls. So, for now at least, it’s a hypothetical exercise. But, as l just began my first week of retirement on Monday, who knows?, now that there is much unrestricted time.

Regarding 5200, I’ve bought a few but rarely used one up fully; mostly when I owned the Pearson 30. I get the 4200 now when I need that “type“ of repair (adhesive sealant); I look for the smaller tube. Nothing important with the smelly stuff. I’ve also used Lifecauk for some applications. Holds up well.

 

[dlochner]

Congratulations on your retirement I’m six years in and still enjoying it.

The questions were potential screening question. Answer yes to either one and you’re out here!

 

[Kings Gambit]

Congratulations on your retirement I’m six years in and still enjoying it.

Thx,
KG

 

[DrJudyB]

I’m not planning on leading, or attempting to lead, a sailboat flotilla anywhere far, anytime soon. If I were, it would not be a large one; maybe 4 boats, all monohulls. So, for now at least, it’s a hypothetical exercise.

Why would you exclude multihulls from your flotilla?

 

[Kings Gambit]

Why would you exclude multihulls from your flotilla?

Only so we can all expect to sail together, more or less. I’ve cruised with multihulls. When we are all anchored, no difference—all good. Underway and destination planning, some differences.

 

[jssailem]

Retirement. Oh my. Congratulations.

when I retired I was told a mantra to remember.

N M P. Not My Problem.

enjoy the experience.

 

[DrJudyB]

Only so we can all expect to sail together, more or less. I’ve cruised with multihulls. When we are all anchored, no difference—all good. Underway and destination planning, some differences.

Are you worried that a multihulls will be faster than you? That line of reasoning gets problematic really fast when you think more carefully about it.

Are you going to exclude 34 and 36’ boats that are 2 knots slower than yours because they can’t keep up with you? They will be out of sight and over the horizon behind you in under 4 hours.

Are you going to exclude 42 and 46 footers because they are faster than you? Or a 55 footer? ( My 24 multihull is about as fast as a 40-42’ Monohull performance cruiser.)

What if somebody wants to fly a spinnaker Or a Code 0? Can they do it without the consent of the Flotilla Captain?

Hmmmmm? I really think you’re worrying about imaginary problems that can't be solved.

 

[DrJudyB]

My suggestion would be this for planning: write a sail plan that suits you and your time frame. You can push as hard as you want and cover as many sea miles as possible in a short time, or sail as leisurely as you want with plenty of short legs and lay over days .

Once you have a plan sail plan, then you can invite others you want to sail with. But in the end, they will decide for themselves decide for themselves if they are competent to do it and if they want to do it.

The way I see things, you are sailing in the company of other Captains, but in the final analysis, every Captain is in sole command of his/her own boat and makes his/her own decisions.

JudyB.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I'll take your quiz.
1) Reefing!
Yes, many times.
2) Anchoring:
I think I might be a little on the paranoid side here....I look at the shore line and review the predicted wind direction for overnight. I then try to get into a nook that will give me the most protection from the wind as possible. Since I have a swing keel... I get in rather close but not too close that the mosquitoes find me. I am a bit conservative compared to what I observe other's doing and I will set two anchors in a V-pattern if I have the room. I have even set three in a star pattern a few times when the nightly wind prediction included a strong clocking of the direction. Likewise I will go for a longer rode if I have the room. I'm afraid to say it out loud but I have never.... (not going to say the d-word) ... my anchor.
3) Standing Watch:
Nadda! But I did pull an 8-hour shift with 5 of those at night My kids were sleeping below and a friend was on deck dozing in the cockpit. It was a beautiful full moon night that started as an evening sail and the conditions were so perfect we just stayed out. We anchored just around 3:00 AM and I got 3 hours of sleep before called to cook eggs.
4) MAYDAY = immediate threat to either life or vessel. PAN-PAN = Urgent but not yet immediate threat. I have never had to (knock on wood) issue either but I did respond to a Coast Guard request to stand by a vessel that had issued a PAN-PAN. The vessel was taking on water but the bilge pump was keeping up. The coasties were sending a pump vessel and tow. I sailed around in circles until they arrived and said I could leave.
5) Never done this either so this is just an educated estimate but force 8 goes up to 40 kts (~ 46 mph) so I should expect to continue to drift 3-4 kts to leeward and if I need to do this for 6 hours and still want to be 2 miles from a lee shore I would need at least 26 miles of sea room. I think I'd rather have 30 in case my calculation was a bit off. Yeah! really not sure about this one.
6) Never done the diesel thing. But I'm guessing I would try to either shut off the fuel line or starve it of air.

Okay! Whats my grade?

On the 5 pt scale each, (1) 5 pt; (2) 3 pt; (3) 2 pt; (4) 5 pt; (5) 4.3 pt; (6) 4 pt = 78% PASS

(2) Selecting a spot in a new anchorage should be preceded by looking over the chart to determine the depths, the type of bottom, to identify any submerged objects and any fouling structures (cables), all followed by an actual depth survey near where you wish to drop the hook, in the sheltered location you have picked as above. Swing radius figures into scope calculation.

(3) No actual watch rotation.

(5) Need to factor in the set due to current.

(6) Run away diesels are not shut down by shutting off the diesel fuel. That’s why they are “run away.” They are running on the motor oil in the pan. You must block the air intake or foul the crank so it stops rotating. Blocking the air—choking it out—is probably the better solution.

Thanks for playing along!

KG

 

[JohnShannon]

You may be overthinking this. Are you collecting $ for this in exchange for running a party or giving everybody T shirts? I do some singlehanded offshore racing and nobody asks if you are experienced. You are expected on your honor to know man overboard procedures. You qualify for the big distance races by doing smaller distances either in a race or again on your honor. You are required to have done a safety at sea seminar (formal training). Other than that there is a list of requirements for what equipment is on your boat and bost construction features. The list gets more extensive the longer the race. I think the presumption is that if you spend $$ on some doodad that you might take the trouble to know how to use it.

I view it as safer way to go offshore as you are in a gaggle and you have been forced to properly prepare your boat. On the other hand when the chips are down you are basically on your own.

So set a minimum equipment list. Then run a short trip as a qualifier for the long trip.
You can't possibly cover everything off. The participants have to accept some responsibility.

 

[sailme88]

Lots of opinions on this posting... The CG has two BASIC terms for waters... Inland Waters.. i.e. San Fransisco Bay and Near Coastal ..beyond the demarcation line and out 200 miles, 150 miles off the California coast. Master Tonnage licenses for sail and power will be based on experience and documentation of operation in the above waters. The demarcation line sets the tone. The kicker is area of operation. At Cape Ann, MA ( Marblehead area) the line is close at hand and can be crossed quick and easily. Move a few miles north to Portsmouth, NH, and you've got a 3 or 4 times further distance to make. Now the navy has two basic terms as well...littoral and Bluewater ...

 

[Kings Gambit]

Lots of opinions on this posting... The CG has two BASIC terms for waters... Inland Waters.. i.e. San Fransisco Bay and Near Coastal ..beyond the demarcation line and out 200 miles, 150 miles off the California coast. Master Tonnage licenses for sail and power will be based on experience and documentation of operation in the above waters. The demarcation line sets the tone. The kicker is area of operation. At Cape Ann, MA ( Marblehead area) the line is close at hand and can be crossed quick and easily. Move a few miles north to Portsmouth, NH, and you've got a 3 or 4 times further distance to make. Now the navy has two basic terms as well...littoral and Bluewater ...

Using Merriam-Webster to “define” those terms, littoral as a noun means a coastal region and blue water as a noun means the open sea. Both, apparently, centuries old since first known usage.

 

[JohnShannon]

Inside 200 miles the CG might get a helicopter to you outside 200 some of their helicopters don't have the range. So whatever goes wrong out there, you are going to be on your own for a lot longer.

 

[DrJudyB]

Lots of opinions on this posting... The CG has two BASIC terms for waters... Inland Waters.. i.e. San Fransisco Bay and Near Coastal ..beyond the demarcation line and out 200 miles, 150 miles off the California coast.

I’d like to add to what @sailme88 wrote.

The raison d’etre for the distinction is a legal (and pedagogical?) one. and has no other significance. The quality of the water is the same on both sides of the line and basic boat handling skills don’t change. Only the applicable navigational rules change.

As everybody on this forum already knows, the rules of navigation are different on either side of the COLREGS line of demarcation. Inside the line of demarcation, mariners must follow the inland water rules for navigation. Beyond the the line of demarcation, we must follow COLREGS.

For most harbors, the line of demarcation is at the entrance to the harbor . Notable larger bodies of water governed under the Inland Rules are the Great Lakes, rivers and San Francisco Bay.

 

[Michael Davis]

@Kings Gambit after rereading your OP it sounds like a cruise of 3 or 4 boats would be with people you know or know of and would have a pretty fair idea of what their qualifications are before you start.
Our plan to sail around Vancouver Island this year included people that didn’t know each other except through this forum which I think gives a fair idea of their capacity.

 

[Kings Gambit]

You may be overthinking this. Are you collecting $ for this in exchange for running a party or giving everybody T shirts?

No. The thread is not about opinions on how to organize a sailing flotilla. The thread is about what metrics might “define“ sailors as “advanced“, made-up term or not. The note that some offshore races are open to all comers who “qualify“ really adds nothing of interest or that is germane. Maybe you can begin a thread on best approaches to organizing a flotilla if you know much about it. I might have some suggestions for you!

 

[Kings Gambit]

@Kings Gambit after rereading your OP it sounds like a cruise of 3 or 4 boats would be with people you know or know of and would have a pretty fair idea of what their qualifications are before you start.
Our plan to sail around Vancouver Island this year included people that didn’t know each other except through this forum which I think gives a fair idea of their capacity.

Hi Michael,

The intro statement was more to create a framework for opinions on what makes an accomplished, or advanced, sailor rather than on the logistics of cruise organization or to portend one. I personally have gained much insight from most of the postings, as I typically do in here, even if a little far a field for some. If I were actually to try to pull together a small number of boats for a adventurous sail out with boats sailing together start to finish, it would very much be with sailors I know in some way b/c it could be a charter fleet, so would need good captains on the boats. The proposed circum-VI cruise is a bit different as it is open “come and go“ as time and interest permit. It’s a great idea. It’s sad that it had to be postponed; hopefully not cancelled!

KG

 

[jon hansen]

i suggest for definition clarification we should add: the advanced sailor should be able to turn off 100% of all the electronics on the boat and be able to continue their sail easily and happily. while electronics are nice tools/toys, the advanced sailor does not need any of them. the sailor and their vessel can do fine without out them.

weather, vessel handling, navigation, food prep, crew happiness, ..... you know, everything on the voyage can be done without electricity.

i was trained, yes, specifically told, "he who trusts their life to electricity is a fool". now to be fair, that was 55 years ago.


what say you?

 

[DrJudyB]

Suppose you’re wishing to organize a sailing adventure for a few boats (not a big rally), such as a cruise to Haida Gwaii from Vancouver. Or, a cruise from New Orleans to the Dry Tortugas, then on to Key West. You wish only “advanced cruisers“

The thread is not about opinions on how to organize a sailing flotilla. The thread is about what metrics might “define“ sailors as “advanced“, made-up term or not.

Well now! This thread is an example of how different folks read things differently. I thought the question was specifically in the context of how to select people to join you on a trip sometime in the future.

Okay, I'll throw in my two cents about what you're trying to do. I respectfully submit the following for consideration:
You just can't do what you're trying to do. It's a fun discussion about definitions, but it's too narrow a field of inquiry to be meaningful, in my personal opinion. You can't evaluate a mariner's expertise via a short questionnaire consisting of 5 or 10 questions or a couple of definitions or metrics.

I like @jon hansen 's approach: a competent skipper has the experience to exercise good judgement regarding weather, vessel handling, navigation, food prep, crew happiness (with and without electronics).

And you all know the joke about good judgment, right?
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience — well, that comes from poor judgement.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Well now! This thread is an example of how different folks read things differently. I thought the question was specifically in the context of how to select people to join you on a trip sometime in the future.

Well, that’s not the title of the thread, which simply reads: “What qualifies as “advanced“ when...”. I’ve already confirmed more than once, even to you, before now, that it is a hypothetical setting; a framework for discussion, and so forth; even perhaps a “context” as you say; including confirming that the underlying question itself is likely not resolvable (See post #50). Also, if there were such a cruise, its likely nature & composition. I’ve also pointed out, previously, that the questions to which you refer and criticize are derived as a response to rgranger‘s proposed set of questions (See post #28). So, we’re not gaining much ground here with the new remarks.