What qualifies as “advanced”; when rating sailing ability?
- Thread starter Kings Gambit
- Start date
Regarding the USVI situation, I can empathize with the folks who suddenly became “stranded.” Island hopping in the Caribbean is a different preparation than a fully open-water passage back to the states. I admit that my personal experience in the Caribbean is minimal, confined to that obtained from bare-boat chartering in the Windwards. But I doubt that even folks with highly developed skills and experience would wish to be “forced“ in short time (to meet insurance deadlines) to sea for more than a week, etc., lacking full and proper preparation. Also, it would be a tough situation to have enticed a crew to help you sail from the BVI to Grenada, but then ask them to sign on for the passage you mention. I’m not surprised skippers were looking for crews and delivery captains.
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I think that person has already has asked him/her self the What If? questions.
Interesting thread.
As someone who plays a lot of chess, I know what you mean in that no two games are the same, or end the same. But it is possible to make the same or similar mistakes repeatedly among your games. The saying goes, paraphrased, “the player who wins a game of chess is the one who makes the next to the last mistake.”
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Actually, a person can assess his or her own skills if the assessment is relative to a standard, not to skills of other sailors they may know. It might have gotten lost in the depths of some of our debate, but the original question was how to determine, a priori, “advanced” or “competent”, standing to join a cruising fleet to some destination where certain skills might be called upon. I return to inspection of the boat itself as a first cut. Is it outfitted properly to begin with?Hmmmm..... Interesting.
Can the thru-hulls be closed, do the running lights work, can the mainsail be readily reefed, is there a boom-brake or preventer assembly, are there jacklines installed, is there a life raft, are there at least two sets of properly-sized ground tackle, can a dinghy be stowed aboard, are there extra winch handles, is there a first-aid kit with actual medical stuff in it (not a basic WM off the shelf version), do the bilge pumps work, are there bailing buckets, are MMSI numbers installed on the VHF, are there 7x50 binoculars, etc. The list could go on. But, without asking many questions of actual experience, I think I would know at least the level of preparedness the sailor deems sufficient.
If you have a large enough line of credit on your card, with a book in one hand and the card in the other a boat can outfitted for all conditions without the owner knowing squat about sailing off shore.
Yes, but I said as a “first cut.” So now the sailor confirms at least what probably should be on the boat; determining whether s/he knows how to use it is another question. But in my experience, sailors who wish to join a cruise lacking the “recommended” equipment are reluctant to buy it just for that one cruise, as they may see it. If I tell someone that another full set of ground tackle is needed, I may or may not see that person along. I know of people wishing to anchor on HEAVY chain in rough places, 34-ft boat, yet have no windlass.
How could this boat get underway in short-time with the rest of the fleet if need be?
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Wouldn't anybody even considering a voyage like that already know all those things about his/her boat? Were I asking folks to join such an adventure I wouldn't think it my place to inspect their boats for my idea of seaworthiness. That is why you'll never see me in a rally.
Well, I didn’t actually mean “inspection” literally as a third party. Unless you are a race official or coastie you wouldn’t be literally inspecting other folk’s boats, of course. More likely, I’d share an items list with folks interested, etc.
In any event, it appears this discussion is taking on the color of one about what is, or what isn’t, a blue-water boat! LOL! I’ve been wondering lately if there is, anymore, such a thing as “definition” even with a check-list. So, I guess in the end, a “seaworthy“ boat is one that can get from place A to place B w/o sinking; a competent skipper is someone who does not fall off of the boat or run it aground on its way there.
But that would be an after-the-fact assessment.
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Good point I’m afraid. You’re asking the same question (“is my boat good enough to do X?”), but you’re asking it about other people’s boats instead of your own. And because you’re asking about other people’s boats you also need to consider the skills of the sailor, whereas people asking it about their own boat assume the sailor has adequate skills. Since we’ve never been able to answer the bluewater boat question in a standard agreeable way I’m not optimistic that there’ll be any better standardized silver bullet answer for this question either. There will always be factors that increase the risks and factors that mitigate the risks. The discussion above does a great job of enumerating those factors, but none on their own seem to lend themselves to a standard formula of what’s acceptable.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,078
Funny you should ask.
I have been thinking about this subject since last September when talking about and planning my "Around Vancouver Island" 2020 cruise. Several fellow sailors showed interest in collaborating on this adventure. They were all sailors with boats, within the region. I figure that we would be sailing together but have individual responsibilities for our boats and crew. We would discuss the issues as we arrived at each of the critical points along the way. I was not in hurry to make the trip on a schedule and it would be up to each boat owner to plan their own time. On the pus side having fellow boats in the area with a common goal, especially on the wild western coast of the island, meant that we could be looking out for each other and be available to provide assistance should it be needed.
That said I had researched ocean rallies to consider checklists and guidelines for outfitting my own boat and sharing ideas. The Atlantic Rally for Cruisers is one of those "organized" events that sailing cruiser participants can join. Boat safety requirements are set and a list has been prepared from over 20 years of running this organized event. (attached safety list both required and suggested)
To identify boat equipment and preparation as a criteria could be an achievable objective measurement for your adventure.
Surprising, Yachting World magazine published an article about boats "Is your yacht Oceanproof?..." Is your yacht oceanproof? How to prepare your boat for (nearly) anything
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,078
This is a great point. The challenge to answer the question, I feel, is in part dependent o the tolerances of the individuals addressing the question.
A 20 foot sailboat with sound design and build has proven to be a successful bluewater boat in the hands of a skilled sailor, but I would not want to cross the Pacific Ocean in one. That gives me a bias against the idea of a 20foot sailboat as a good boat to recommend. Further, when asked by a person who states "I am a newbie and excited to get into sailing", my response is easy to address the limits of a 20 ft boat rather then the lack of sailing skills on a public forum.
For the purpose of KG's exercise, unless there is a perceived flavor of boat desired in the gathering, the ideas of the ARC might serve.
Preparing for a Rally
What do I need?
To join a World Cruising Club rally, you will need a seaworthy boat. We don't define the type of boat, but we do set some limits on boat length, and we expect you and your boat to have completed an offshore passage in the year before the rally.
We do expect your boat to carry certain items of equipment, and that you understand how to use these.
I'll take your quiz.
1) Reefing!
Yes, many times.
2) Anchoring:
I think I might be a little on the paranoid side here....I look at the shore line and review the predicted wind direction for overnight. I then try to get into a nook that will give me the most protection from the wind as possible. Since I have a swing keel... I get in rather close but not too close that the mosquitoes find me. I am a bit conservative compared to what I observe other's doing and I will set two anchors in a V-pattern if I have the room. I have even set three in a star pattern a few times when the nightly wind prediction included a strong clocking of the direction. Likewise I will go for a longer rode if I have the room. I'm afraid to say it out loud but I have never.... (not going to say the d-word) ... my anchor.
3) Standing Watch:
Nadda! But I did pull an 8-hour shift with 5 of those at night My kids were sleeping below and a friend was on deck dozing in the cockpit. It was a beautiful full moon night that started as an evening sail and the conditions were so perfect we just stayed out. We anchored just around 3:00 AM and I got 3 hours of sleep before called to cook eggs.
4) MAYDAY = immediate threat to either life or vessel. PAN-PAN = Urgent but not yet immediate threat. I have never had to (knock on wood) issue either but I did respond to a Coast Guard request to stand by a vessel that had issued a PAN-PAN. The vessel was taking on water but the bilge pump was keeping up. The coasties were sending a pump vessel and tow. I sailed around in circles until they arrived and said I could leave.
5) Never done this either so this is just an educated estimate but force 8 goes up to 40 kts (~ 46 mph) so I should expect to continue to drift 3-4 kts to leeward and if I need to do this for 6 hours and still want to be 2 miles from a lee shore I would need at least 26 miles of sea room. I think I'd rather have 30 in case my calculation was a bit off. Yeah! really not sure about this one.
6) Never done the diesel thing. But I'm guessing I would try to either shut off the fuel line or starve it of air.
Okay! Whats my grade?
Agreed! I think the fact that a sailor knows what should be on their boat is a good starting point in assessing their knowledge/skill. Knowledge and skill are not the same thing but one does precede the other.Yes, but I said as a “first cut.” So now the sailor confirms at least what probably should be on the boat; determining whether s/he knows how to use it is another question. But in my experience, sailors who wish to join a cruise lacking the “recommended” equipment are reluctant to buy it just for that one cruise, as they may see it. If I tell someone that another full set of ground tackle is needed, I may or may not see that person along. I know of people wishing to anchor on HEAVY chain in rough places, 34-ft boat, yet have no windlass.
You would hope. But we have all read the stories of the novice who buys a boat, sells the farm and then quickly sinks their boat. (and then start a go-fund-me page
)
Couple’s life savings go down with sunken sailboat
Their boat sank — but their dream did not. A ditzy Colorado couple whose vessel went underwater just a day after they embarked on what they hoped would be a carefree life sailing the seas begged fo…
nypost.com
How far to you have to be from land to call it offshore or Blue water? I don't think in terms like that for the kind of cruising I do.
I prefer to stay within a couple of hours of shore. I call trips like that a “Near Shore Passage” I keep an eye on the weather, and if the forecast is looking nasty , I head for shelter. We (my boat and I) are comfortable sailing in a near gale, but we stay home in a gale.
I’ve haven't taken my current boat more than about 25 or 30 miles from shore yet. I’d be comfortable going further offshore in good weather and conditions less than Gale force. Sailing in a full blown Gale is just too uncomfortable and no fun. I’d stay home. I work out my sail plan to minimize the probability of needing to heave to for 6 hours in a gale.
I prefer to stay within a couple of hours of shore. I call trips like that a “Near Shore Passage” I keep an eye on the weather, and if the forecast is looking nasty , I head for shelter. We (my boat and I) are comfortable sailing in a near gale, but we stay home in a gale.
I’ve haven't taken my current boat more than about 25 or 30 miles from shore yet. I’d be comfortable going further offshore in good weather and conditions less than Gale force. Sailing in a full blown Gale is just too uncomfortable and no fun. I’d stay home. I work out my sail plan to minimize the probability of needing to heave to for 6 hours in a gale.
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JudyB, I’ll take a stab at it.
Actually, I don’t know the origin of “Blue Water” [sailing] as we use it in our discussions. I suspect the term itself is hardly more than an advertising slogan created to sell “sailing dreams” to landlubbers, etc (forgive). But oceanographically, blue water is oceanic water far enough offshore for the water to be mostly free of sediment and turbidity, which are responsible for greenish and yellowish tones nearshore, and thus become blue. How far that is depends on the hydrography and geology of the coastal area. Blue water is further offshore along the US east coast than the US west coast, there being more rivers and a wider, more shallowly sloping continental shelf there than here. In the GOM, for example, you may have to be nearly a 100 nautical miles off west FL to find blue water.
Sailors of old referred to the vast regions of blue ocean water as deep water, or deep sea. Thus, my thought that “Blue Water“ sailing may not actually be a sailor’s term historically.
So, along the coast of western North America we have a relatively narrow continental shelf and a steep continental slope. Thus, off most of CA, OR, and WA, deep water (= blue water) is reached rather quickly when heading offshore. At only 60 n.mi off the Oregon coast, for example, the depth is approaching 1,000 m, if not already beyond that. At 25 n.mi., you’re likely over a slope bottom near 600 m. So, for the above definitions you’d be sailing in “Blue Water.” But at SBO, I think we might have decided that you’re effectively “Blue Water Sailing“ (rather than coastal) if more than one day’s run (24 hr) from safe harbor. That could be around 200 n.mi., probably less, assuming you’re directly offshore of the safe harbor.
As to Pacific summer gales, they occur along the coast; but along the CA coast we have the deep water as I explained. To the extent that Force 8 gales like deep water
, they can find it close to the CA coast. And they seem to like to spring up near the points, such as Pt Sur, Pt Piedras Blancas, Pt Arguello, and Pt Conception. But GENERALLY, you can expect lesser conditions within 10 n.mi. of shore off CA. Yeah, where the fog typically is. KG
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@Kings Gambit
Thats an interesting discourse on deep vs blue water, but I don’t think in those terms when planning a trip. I think using terms that are useful for planning my trip. Deep water isn’t important to me per se, except so far as deep means “too deep to anchor” with the tackle onboard.
Off shore cruising to me means I can’t get to sheltered water quickly, so I’d better be ready to deal with a Gale or worse conditions.
Near shore Cruising to me means I know I can make it back to an anchorage sheltered coastal waters within a half day (6–8 hours?) if the weather forecast predicts rough condition that would tax my stamina. I plan my route and schedule accordingly.
A corollary to my definition of “near shore” and offshore is that it depends on how fast my boat is. And how far apart the anchorages are.
I think it is more important to ask how far I can sail my boat in a one day, in rough conditions and before I’m overwhelmed by fatigue or conditions. The quality of my answer is a better measure of my competency as captain than asking me to tell you how far I will drift toward a lee shore for 6 hours. In my opinion, a better measure of competency would be asking me if I know myself and my boat well enough to write or evaluate a sailplan.. (And if I can put together a sailplan which aims to avoid getting caught in a situation wherein I need to heave to for 6 or 8 hours due to rough conditions beyond my strength).
My boat won’t survive getting caught in a hurricane, so it’s up to me to stay away from that kind of trouble.
Judy B
San Francisco, CA.
Thats an interesting discourse on deep vs blue water, but I don’t think in those terms when planning a trip. I think using terms that are useful for planning my trip. Deep water isn’t important to me per se, except so far as deep means “too deep to anchor” with the tackle onboard.
Off shore cruising to me means I can’t get to sheltered water quickly, so I’d better be ready to deal with a Gale or worse conditions.
Near shore Cruising to me means I know I can make it back to an anchorage sheltered coastal waters within a half day (6–8 hours?) if the weather forecast predicts rough condition that would tax my stamina. I plan my route and schedule accordingly.
A corollary to my definition of “near shore” and offshore is that it depends on how fast my boat is. And how far apart the anchorages are.
I think it is more important to ask how far I can sail my boat in a one day, in rough conditions and before I’m overwhelmed by fatigue or conditions. The quality of my answer is a better measure of my competency as captain than asking me to tell you how far I will drift toward a lee shore for 6 hours. In my opinion, a better measure of competency would be asking me if I know myself and my boat well enough to write or evaluate a sailplan.. (And if I can put together a sailplan which aims to avoid getting caught in a situation wherein I need to heave to for 6 or 8 hours due to rough conditions beyond my strength).
My boat won’t survive getting caught in a hurricane, so it’s up to me to stay away from that kind of trouble.
Judy B
San Francisco, CA.
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KG is this an exercise in hypothetical planning or preparation for a flotilla you plan to lead? Just curious.
Two questions to ask any future participant:
1) How many tubes of 5200 have you bought and used?
2) How many things on the boat are bedded in silicone sealant, you know the cheap smelly kind?
Two questions to ask any future participant:
1) How many tubes of 5200 have you bought and used?
2) How many things on the boat are bedded in silicone sealant, you know the cheap smelly kind?