What makes a 30' boat heavy sea worthy?

sailndive345 · Feb 15, 2009

sailingdog said:
Of course, having proper storm gear, like a Jordan Series Drogue, can make things much safer if you encounter a bad storm.

Has anyone in this forum actually used the JSD or the chute shaped sea anchor? When I purchased Layla a few years ago, the previous owner was apparently giving up on boating (sailing, to be sure) - I ended up with a large inventory of safety equipment including the (chute) sea anchor and a JSD: The sea anchor seems a bit unwieldy... In heavy air, I am afraid of mishandling it and ending up airborne

like a para-surfer.... And for the JSD; would you use it as a warp to slow the boat and stern-behind-the-bow or as a sea anchor to control drift and point the bow into the wind?

I'll feel much better about having both these (and all the other gear) if I figure out the actual use and get some real-world practice sessions..

Does anyone know of links to on-line video clips demostrating the use of these safety devices (not in calm conditions :neutral: )?

Sailndive345

Stu Jackson · Feb 15, 2009

Ocean "going" vs. conditions anticipated

Hermit,

99 times outta 100 conditions on the ocean are NOT anywhere more difficult than coastal cruising. In fact, here in San Francisco Bay, the conditions outside just a few miles from the Golden Gate Bridge are a heck of a lot calmer than inside the Bay during the windy summer months. It can be blowing 25 to 30 kts inside and only 10 to 15 two or three miles out.

The issue about coastal vs ocean going is simply this: If you're out on an EXTENDED ocean passage, the chances of getting hit with really foul weather increase tremendously (putting aside weather routing and all that new fangled stuff).

Therefore, if you are going to be doing THAT KIND of sailing, you want a boat that's all around beefier and has a more substantial underbody than the fin keel, stock-hung rudder that your boat and mine both have. Your post pointed out, quite correctly, those things that matter.

If, however, on shorter open ocean cruises where you can predict the weather within a few days, you'll find the boat sails just as fine on ocean water than in protected water. Heck, the boat doesn't know where it is, it's just reacting to the water it's floating on!

"The Desirable & Undersireable Characteristics of Ocean Going Yachts" is somewhat heavy, but valuable reading. Hull forms haven't changed much since they invented canoes in the Mediterranean thousands of years ago.

Benny · Feb 15, 2009

There seems to be a failed logic assumption that because a particualr boat sailed across an ocean or circumnavigated that all same model boats are safely cabable of doing the same. Perhaps the reason they were able to circumnavigate was because they did not encounter foul weather and not because the boat was strong enough to do it. Like Stu says the infinite majority of the time conditions are fair. Long time cruisers confirm that they encounter foul weather on less than 3% of their time at sea. I'm sure some of these stats do not arise by chance alone but the fact that experienced sailors wach the weather and schedule passages for favorable seasonal windows. Crossing the Gulf of Mexico and cruising to the Bahamas is certainly very doable in a boat your size. Do make sure that the boat is in good condition and all equipment has been checked. Can not emphasize enough the importance of a good forecast and the confidence in the probabilty that it will hold for 48 to 72 hours going forward. If possible sail with a buddy boat as you may help each other out. A chain is as strong as its weakest link. Strengthening the riggin and rudder is always a good idea but the hull and deck integrity is the primary factor.

sailndive345 · Feb 15, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
SailNdive- in the archive search box, type in Franklin and JSD. He uses his and is JSD's biggest fan. He has me sold on them.

Will do, and thanks!

Sailndive345

sailingdog · Feb 16, 2009

I've used them as well, and am probably as big a fan as Franklin is.

Hermit Scott said:
SailNdive- in the archive search box, type in Franklin and JSD. He uses his and is JSD's biggest fan. He has me sold on them.

Stu Jackson · Feb 16, 2009

...and about a lot of things, too, in a positive way!

Marco Garcia · Feb 16, 2009

Here is a link I keep as reference. I tell to myself "Some Day". Is in nordic language, but you can see the equipment and they have videos.
http://www.trafficated.com/
Compared their boat and your boat, and they seemed to be similar using this sailing calculator:
http://image-ination.com/sailcalc.html

I would take a catalina 30.

Tim Jedda 22 · Feb 16, 2009

As previously mentioned, it can come down to random dumb luck! A fellow I knew, Craig Philipson, sailed a Hood 23, Sea Cow, from northern Australia across the Indian Ocean, around Cape of Good Hope, before finally succumbing to the conditions in the North Atlantic. Even though the boat was on the way down, he still had time to be rescued.

Stu Jackson · Feb 16, 2009

Another valuable reference source

Hermit,

Calder's "Cruising Handbook" is also very good. Much of the book covers material that answers your original question.

If I were to be asked to pick a handful of books, in addition to the standard navigation requirements, I would choose Calder's two books (this and his "Boatowner's Manual for Mechanical & Electrical Systems," my engine's manual with all the parts list with blowup diagrams (like our C36 brethren available on our websites at http://www.c34.org/manuals/index.htm), and John Letcher's "Self Steering for Small Craft" (unfortunately out of print).

A CD or DVD of our entire C34 website would be a welcome addition once I figure out how to download all the great material! :dance: *****Commercial over******

tag for future searches: book review

Ross · Feb 16, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
After looking at some self steering systems, I wonder why you couldn't just have a large vane to the side of your wheel with some ropes running to a large pulley mounted behind your wheel. I am pretty sure I saw a set up like that on Youtube. I didn't see any gears on the vane mechanish but I can't be sure. I read some web sites on vanes, I haven't studied it in depth yet. That one's way down on the list.

Buy a copy of this book. http://www.amazon.com/Self-Steering-Sailing-Craft-John-Letcher/dp/0877420424

jibes138 · Feb 17, 2009

Queen Mary

Once the Queen Mary was transiting the Atlantic as she was prone to do from time to time. A wave hit her bow and smashed the windows out of the bridge deck. The bridge deck is about 100 feet above sea level. Now they have the Queen Mary tied to a dock in Long Beach and they let you bungie jump off her. I guess they figured that the Queen Mary is not a bluewater boat.
Yesterday a good friend the Hankster sent me a movie of an aircraft carrier cruising along in heavy seas. A chopper was up near the bow. Waves were smashing the bow and completely engulfing the chopper. Another 30 to 50 million ruined. I asked another friend that flew F14's in the Navy how high the deck was above sea level and he said 60 feet. I question whether the carrier is large enough and why they didn't use their weather forecasting to avoid the storm? Imagine the guys in the destroyer escorts.
So it is all relative. Conditions could be so bad that not much man made would survive it. On that basis you could say I am going to live on a ranch in Montana but up there the Grizzly bears might eat you while walking in the woods. The world is filled with hazards and dangers. As we go through life we encounter many and some people make it others don't. I read that there is a 1 in 100 chance in your lifetime of being in a fatal car crash. Yet you still drive. Go fix up your new boat and then go sailing. Just don't do anything stupid and stay in port if you know it is going to be rotten. And in the end if out on the water and a bad storm hits you unexpectedly get out your JSD, deploy it and then go below for a nap.
By the way are you going to put the 2 inch straps on your boat for attaching the JSD?
Another thing to consider. I know you are preoccupied with mechanical preparations, but you need to learn how to navigate. You may already have some experience so I am making an assumption since you said it is your first boat. I highly recommend you pay a few bucks and take the captains license course. I thought I knew how to navigate until I took the course and really learned how. One of my instructors was a retired captain from an ice breaker. Since then I refuse to use chartplotters and always plot my course on a chart with regular position checks at periodic time intervals. I use both GPS and LORAN as a back up. Dead reckoning is my third back up. I also keep a spare compass around (a hand bearing unit) as it is good to take bearings, can be used to see if your anchor has set and if the main compass is wrecked by a rogue wave may come in handy. I have yet to learn celestial but have a sextant and a few good books and of course the tables.
Someone also mentioned Bowditch. This is the bible of nautical information and while Chapmans reads like a novel in comparison the Bowditch is filled with useful information. I was told it was mandatory reading for first year at the Coast Guard academy. Should be available at Amazon or I've seen them at West if you insist on paying the maximum price possible.
Good luck.
Dave

sailingdog · Feb 17, 2009

Leverage and turning distance.

Wheel steering is harder to setup with a wind vane, since the resistance added by the wheel and such makes it harder for the windvane to turn the steering quadrant. While connecting the wind vane to the wheel would give it more leverage, then you need to have more adjustment since most boats with wheel steering are more than two turns lock-to-lock.

Hermit Scott said:
Jsut tell me why I am wrong Ross, You sound like a professor trying to get me to learn on my own.

sailingdog · Feb 17, 2009

Jibes—

Regarding Bowditch... available free on the Internet (in PDF form IIRC) here.

However, for small craft navigators, I highly recommend this book instead. Far more readable and written specifically for small craft navigators.

Click the image to see the book at Amazon, where I swiped the image from.

sailndive345 · Feb 18, 2009

Rick Webb said:
Cozumel, Grand Cayman, Jamaica, etc.?

Scott,

Rick makes a good point. A convenient way to "get your feet wet" on a relatively long cruise and have support -in case you need it- along the way, consider entering one of the races like the Vera Cruz race from Galveston to Vera Cruz, Mexico (every other year) and they come up with another race to fill the alternate years (like Progresso, MX, FL panhandle, etc)

Would give you a chance to get used to the boat, navigation, etc and have a good bit of fun at the destination

Additionally, you'll get to meet folks with more experience than yourself and get to "see" how they may have rigged their boats and why.

Check out the Galveston Bay Cruising Association (http://www.gbca.org/) web site for info on such opportunities. I used to sail with them until early 90s and it was lots of fun.

Fair winds and don't forget to have fun!

Sailndive

PS: In my humble opinion, while reading material will increase your awareness of what equipment is available and hearing others' experiences gets you thinking in theoretical terms (sort of like watching movies

) - there's nothing that'll teach you faster than spending time on water in all kinds of conditions (prudently!) and keeping a keen eye on "your" boat equipment and behavior during sails.

If you study and "understand" all the material suggested in this thread thus far, you'd be glued to an arm chair for a few years... All I am trying to say is "keep it in balance"

Stu Jackson · Feb 18, 2009

Just gotta ask

what's IIRC?

What makes a 30' boat heavy sea worthy?

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