What makes a 30' boat heavy sea worthy?

[Roger Long]

I have seen curves that indicate that some boats rolled past 120 degrees will keep going and be stable when turtled. I have seen other curves that showed a positive righting ability to about 170 degrees.

A surprising number of boats considered "blue water" cruisers are stable upside down. Most normally proportioned sailboats will, in fact, roll over and come to rest upside down if heeled past a point between 120 and 170 degrees depending on boat configuration.

This isn't as much of a concern as you might think. Wind isn't going to heel you past 90 degrees. Larger heel angles will be due to wave induced capsize and the dynamics of those events make the odds of being left close to exactly upside down very low. Most wave rolls are complete 360's or at least far enough to get the boat back in positive range.

It takes a much narrower and deeper vessel than is common now to be self righting from 180 degrees.

 

[Ross]

Roger, Will all ballasted boats come back up from a 90 degree knock down, i.e. spreaders in the water?

 

[Roger Long]

Roger, Will all ballasted boats come back up from a 90 degree knock down, i.e. spreaders in the water?

No, not at all.

Most of the monohulls of the type most of us are concerned with here will, in theory. If you have ever tried to right a dinghy, you know that, once the rig gets into the water it takes quite a bit of force to break it free. The righting force of almost every sailboat you ever saw is considerably less at 90 degrees than at 30 - 40. Wind is very unlikely to blow a cruising sailboat truly flat but it might get it far enough for some wave action to do the rest. The result might well be the boat remaining in that attitude for a while. Watertight integrity will then determine the outcome.

There are lots of stories about people being blown flat. However, extreme heel angles are like waves. You can almost always cut the reported number in half safely. Even experienced sailors will report a 60 degree knockdown as being 90 degrees. Reference points get a bit hard to track at that point and the crew generally have other things on their minds than careful observation for later reporting.

Complete rolls due to wave action are probably far more common in boats large enough for cruising than wind knockdowns to 70 - 90 degrees.

 

[John]

there are obvious issues to make do.

I saw John, who asked the original question (partly about his C36), and while we were motoring along at about 2 knots together just to say "Hi," I mentioned: "Hey, here's a summary of your options, John: Beef up your boat and become completely knowledgeable about all of its systems, or buy a "beefier" boat and become completely knowledgeable about all of its systems." ...

There was an article in Cruising World a few years ago about a C36 that got "beefed up" and did just fine.

So, for a production-type boat like the C36, what would be recommended to beef it up? Would this mean glassing in the bulkheads, for instance?

 

[newly anonymous]

you got that right!

You can almost always cut the reported number in half safely. Even experienced sailors will report a 60 degree knockdown as being 90 degrees.

I was working mast during a race once when the boat rounded down during a gybe to where the outboard three or four feet of the spinnaker pole was under water. Everyone back in the cockpit swore it had been a 90 degree knock, but neither the foredeck guy or I ever lost our feet up on deck. Couldn't have been much more than 60 degrees.

 

[Stu Jackson]

"Beefin Up" a C36

John,

It is possible that Cruising World has that C36 article in their archives.

Maine Sail's explanation earlier is just as valid for my C34 and your C36 as it is to Hermit's C30. Same interior construction, etc. Good and valid points all.

 

[s sauer]

If your 1st premise was you bought the boat and wanted to sail to the Bahamas, then perhaps we could just address how the Catalina 30 is, or could be made suitable for that voyage.

I'd say, if you can be 'comfortable' getting a weather window sufficient to sail or motor sail to the Bahamas, then make sure the boat, its equipment, sails and it's standing rigging are all in condition to make that trip. I wouldn't personally want to experience consistent winds above 30 knots in that boat, and mid twentys with a small jib and reefed main would presumably be OK with sufficient EXPERIENCED crew. I'd still want the boat to be set up with storm sails including the ability to double or tripple reef the mainsail just incase you do get caught out in something not envisioned in your 'weather window'.

I'd also want to look at the watertight integrity of sail lockers and hatches, anchor well, companionway boards and hatch. What openings do you have that could down-flood the boat and get you in trouble? You also sounded concerned about the integrity of the stock rudder post-- maybe you could be looking at how it is built into the hull and reinforce that if appropriate, increase the size of the cockpit scuppers, etc.some things you already seem to have in mind.

 

[Franklin]

Scott:

Let me tell you about a story. A fellow dock neighbor took a trip to Cancun almost exactly a year from now. He was in a Islander 36' I believe which may be a little sea worthy then a C30 but still a racer/cruiser like yours. His crew was a non-sailor femaile. He never let her take the helm the first 3 days so he was dead tired when the bad weather hit. He eventually had to go below and get some sleep with her at the helm.

After a while she woke him up by calling his name from the helm. He came out the companionway and was in shock at the size of the waves. He pulled out his sea anchor and went to the bow to deploy it after dropping the sails. He thought it got caught up in the keel or rudder as it wasn't grabbing, so he started walking it back to the cockpit. All of a sudden, it ripped out of his hands and he lost it.

He then decided to lie ahull and he called the CG on the Sat phone. He said "if you get an EPIRB call from me, dno't bother to call, just come get me" and he gave his coordinates. He then turned off his phone which wasn't a good idea because the CG tried to contact him every hour. Next sunrise they sent out a plane to find him. The plane found him and called him on the VHF telling him to call CG and let them know he is OK.

I remember that storm. It was real bad and lasted for days. I thought it was like 4 days but he said it was more like 7 days. I remember talking to my neighbor here at the dock (we both are live-aboard) about the poor guy at sea after about the second day of 40+ knots of wind.

The guy finally came back to Kemah after 4 months in Cancun and we all gathered in the cockpit to hear the stories. Turns out, lying ahull was no problem for the boat. He was in very deep water and must have been far away from the Gulf Stream because the waves were rollers and the boat didn't roll even though the wind was very strong. Things could have been different for him but they weren't.

BTW: he wasn't all that experienced either and left with old sails. His main was ripped so he had to replace it once he found a port.

 

[Roger Long]

I remember talking to my neighbor here at the dock (we both are live-aboard) about the poor guy at sea after about the second day of 40+ knots of wind.

Turns out, lying ahull was no problem for the boat.

Take those two statements together. Most boats will do quite well lying a hull. It's a classic strategy and requires the least of the crew. However, it leaves the boat most vulnerable to roll over by a larger breaking sea. 40 knots of wind, while wearing and debilitating, do not create a significant danger of that although there is some. He probably ended up doing the right thing.

Add 10 - 15 knots of wind, doubling the wind force, and the picture starts to change; especially if it is a large well developed system that has been running over a lot of water on its way to you. The chances of getting rolled while lying a hull go up significantly. I'd rather have a drogue out than be lying in my bunk worrying.

Opinions seem to have swung from lying a hull to using drogues as boats have gotten wider and higher and their keels deeper. This is consistent with the behavior of hulls broadside in breaking seas.

 

[Ron20324]

Would you think the "CE design category" as a starting point if looking for a boat? My Beneteau 323, for instance, rates "B", which is "offshore", to force 8 winds and 13-foot seas. Does anyone know if older boats (Scott's Cat 30) have such ratings?

 

[Franklin]

Roger:

I was trying to point out just about the worst it gets in the Gulf of Mexico, not other seas. Usually only time it gets worse then that storm in the Gulf is hurricanes. Of my 5 years sailing here, I can only think of one winter storm that was worse then that one and it really was what was left over from a hurricane in the Pacific that came over Mexico. When you become a live-aboard, you notice every storm's strenght and duration....it affects your sleep

 

[Ross]

In the sense of the biblical story : Mary stored these things in her heart and pondered them.
Much has been discussed here today and much thought must be given to the information that has been offered and for me at least well received. My boat is full keel and will heave to in 5-10 knots when we want to just sit. I know that I would be under much reduced canvas before I would heave to in a storm.

 

[Hermit Scott]

Thank you all for the very straight forward answers. This thread has actually broadened my horizons somewhat. I read the intro to cruising endless summer, I am going to get the e-book($4.95) and read that while I wait for Force10 from ebay.
I am not worried about being in heavy weather for myself, so much as I am for my wife. I like the thought of riding out a storm and having a story to tell that 10 times worse than it actually was. Her experience would be very differnet from mine in 20-30' seas. With her in the boat I want to avoid all rough weather possible. If it were just me in the boat and I had to choose between a series drouge or an epirb, I would take the drouge.
Maine Sail- I took that sink cabinet back to my shop and redid it. when I took it out I wondered what would keep it secured to the engine compaartment if the boat rolled 360. I guess the answer is nothing. The stove on the gimble would just fly out of the hatch I guess, there was nothing holding it in place. I will save this post along with the propane document, and your gel coat poilishing technique, which I am still doing something wrong with.
The standing rigging was updated from the original I think. The lower shrouds have backing plates and the upper shrouds have the chainplates that extend 18" or so down the bulkhead. I will work on those things in your list here once I get to a slip this spring. Is it ok to extend a cable in line with the chain plate down to the hull?
Rick- I live in San Antonio so I know alot of Mexicans. The way they describe the corruption in Mexico makes me not want to go as a vacation type visit. I would rather blow some one's head off than to pay them to leave me alone, but this is the way it is there it seems. Nothing is going to change that in the near future. However their view point is that of a poor immigrant that didn't like their own country enough to stay, so I have to consider that.
I like the thought of the Bahamas because they are US controlled. I am sure my view points will change as I travel though. Also I have a half brother that lives near Tampa. I haven't seen him in 25 years. I thought it would be good to see him and his family.
I am not opposed to going that way eventually though, as long as I know there won't be problems with the Mexican governemt.
Novelman-your psot is very interesting. I hope I feel the same confidence in my c30 that you had in yours. Only time and experience will tell.
Franklin-I didn't know you lived aboard. That helps explain you riding out the hurricane. Thanks for the stories and advice. You have done and are doing very similar trips to the ones I am hoping to do next year. I went to some of the marinas in Kemah while I was shopping for a boat, which one do you stay at? Do they have floating piers there?
Are floating piers that big a deal? At the Corpus Christi marina it's $4 a foot on a standard pier and like $5.30 a foot for a floating pier. The tides aren't that drastic in CC because of the barrier island. I am wondering if it's worth the extra money.
Ross this post was a little more about the boats ability to handle weather than my ability. But I will study up on heavy weather tactics, such as heaving to and lying a hull. I will read the Pardys book. That seems to be popular. I mean who goes around without an engine?

 

[Franklin]

To me floating docks are necessary in this area due to hurricane's storm surge. I just wished they built the risers 10' higher then they do.

It's also nice in the winter time when 3' of water gets blown out of the bay. When you are carrying 50lbs of laundry of 10 bags of groceries, it's nice to have the boat the same height as the dock. We pay $7 a foot here.

About the best way to visit Mexico I believe is the Regatta De Amigos. The government really looks out for the group during that race and the race going to Vera-Cruz is very important to them. The 2010 race will be the start of a two week celebration of the 200 years of the Mexican Navy. They have promised to have a marina built just for this race.

 

[Ross]

Hermit one chapter in the book details Larry's thoughts on a seaworthy boat. I won't attempt to paraphrase it but suffice to say that he thinks that most boat are built too much for the social dock crowd than for serious off shore passage making.

 

[Rick Webb]

Mexicans in Mexico Will Welcome Your Visit

It is not a bad place to visit really. I lived in San Antonio for a long time and went to shcool at SWT. I thought it would be more interesting and probably cheaper than coming around the Gulf clockwise. If you get up here let me know, I'll bring the Shiner.

While your focused on going keep in mind the coming back is tougher to do. To cross the Gulf we go to Apalachicola and wait for the weather to get bad and follow it across. Most of our weather goes west to east and the systems are three to four days apart great for going east but that means you have a much shorter window going west. Just somthing to keep in mind.

 

[Hermit Scott]

Franklin, TonyB said the same thing about the floating docks; great most of the time until a hurricane comes and they slip over the risers. That's how he lost his C30. I wonder why the don't cap them?

I got on a 33' boat with a narrow beam and a small cockpit. The only time I would prefer that boat over mine is if I was in an upsidedown boat. But I don't plan on crossing oceans. I definitely think I am in the right sailboat. With the right equipment, skill and weather planning I think I can reduce the chance of a capsize to a comfortable level. I prefer the layout and space in the cockpit and cabin to the ability to right itself from being turn turtle. I was just at the book store, a book I was reading on offshore boats says that a wide beam gives you a choppy tiresome movement at sea with less roll, the narrow more smoother but much farther roll and heel.
I main reasons I bought this boat are, it's big enough for my wife and I to live in and it was the cheapest boat over 25' that I could find. (I don't finance anything anymore unless it makes enough money to pay for itself.) It just so happened to be a catalina 30.
I somewhat undestand the tough, independent, self reliant, spartan attitude of the Pardys. But I wouldn't want to live in a boat like that. I want a cold beer and a flat screen and constant internet access. If you don't travel with enough of a budget, you go to the Bahamas and have to live like a peasant. I will say living like a peasant in the islands sounds better than living like a peasant in San Antonio.

 

[bananabender]

Last year my wife and I sailed our 1991 Hunter 43 from Florida to Australia, without mishap, damage or injuries. The trip was fastracked and only took us 11 and bit months. (delivery skippers do take less time i've been told).
I don't think most people contributing to this forum would consider a 1991 43 Hunter a 'blue water' yacht or one designed to handle heavy weather for extended periods.
I can only confirm what others have said: obtain plenty of weather information and know how to read it, always reduce the load on the rig well in advance (the use of colour radar was especially helpfull in reading localised storm cells) and sleep as much as possible when you can.

 

[All U Get]

Hi Hermit,
Years ago I stopped in several Smokejumper bases out west and took their tour of their base. They all sew their own jumpsuit and pack their own parachute for the obvious reasons. Those that have responded to your threads have helped you pack your chute. If you check out American Sailing Assoc., US Sailing, or the many other schools you will find some reading lists that fill out a library quite nicely. What's even better is finding the author and asking pointed questions for better meaning. That's why I like this site. BTW I threw 200 lbs of lead under my V-berth last season because there wasn't a 25 gallon water tank up there like in some C-30's, don't tell the other guys.
All U Get

 

[Maine Sail]

Maine Sail- I took that sink cabinet back to my shop and redid it. when I took it out I wondered what would keep it secured to the engine compaartment if the boat rolled 360. I guess the answer is nothing. The stove on the gimble would just fly out of the hatch I guess, there was nothing holding it in place.

And much of the furniture in production boats is secured like this! If you got knocked down that galley counter could literally kill you..


There is a difference between someone who has experienced truly rough weather sailing and someone who has read about it in a book. You really begin to think differently when you have experienced it. I have had stuff land on me, broken bones, experienced a wave induced knock downs, and had cabin contents come flying through the air and give me stitches.

Reading in a book helps you get a very basic understanding but being there and feeling the violence of it all give new meaning as to why boats designed for coastal sailing will not do well in a drawn out off shore storm for very long. as I said before go out close to home on teh most violent days before you head off shore. this will give you an understanding of the movement your hull will sustain, the loads on steering gear etc. etc. and will help you better understand what to look for in terms of making your boat sea ready.

I was on a Shanon 50 during the Perfect Storm, not even in the bad parts, and that boat is built like an army tank, but was still tossed about like a ping pong ball in a washing machine. I feel comfortable in saying I may not be here today if I had been on a lightly built coastal cruiser. It was a dumb delivery but I was young & dumb and that storm was NOT predicted to be nearly as bad as it turned out. Surprise storms like that are much rarer in your neck of the woods. It's not the wind but the wave period that beats the living snot out of a boat..!!!