What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter comp.
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Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
:stirthepot::neutral:
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
:stirthepot::neutral:
Don, the case I cited was a U.S. Supreme Court case. As you probably know, the US Supreme Court is the final arbiter of what the federal, including maritime, law says, how it's interpreted, and how it is to be applied. Before that case, damages were still apportioned among those at fault, but a different rule was used, the "divided damages" rule. What that brule said was that if 2 or more people were at fault, the damages were divided equally regardless of the percentage of fault on the part of the people. So in Merg's case, no matter how much at fault each may have been, each would have been responsible for 50% of any damages. So apportionment has been around a lot longer than 1975.
This Supreme Court case in 1975 said that from then on, liability will be apportioned according to the actual fault of the parties. So, since 1975, in any maritime case, any federal court or state court applying federal maritime law will apportion fault on a percentage basis, and each party is responsible for his portion of the damages, no more and no less. IT IS THE LAW! Every federal court and state court, in a federal maritime case, will apportion fault that way, and they have approtioned fault that way BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO.
Where you all are perhaps getting confused is with the relationship as between a captain and his crew. If the ship's navigator screws up and runs the ship aground, then the captain is responsible for his navigator's actions. If the navigator runs the ship aground because someone came along and moved a navigation marker without telling anybody, fault will be apportioned between the ship and the person who moved the marker.
It's very simple and very fair. It doesn't absolve a captain from any responsibility for his own negligence. It does prevent the captain being saddled with responsiblity for someone else's (other than his own crew) negligence.
way too many assumptions here.
First; the owner said that said pass wasn't a problem. it may well be that the last time he was through it it wasn't a problem. it has been stated that it was silted in. sometimes passes can silt up in one storm over a couple of days.
second; when transiting a pass if its charted at 6 feet and you draw 5 then the prudent and knowledgeable captain would go slowly. obviously you were going way to fast for conditions, if to drive yourself so hard aground in silt so as make it impossible to get out on your own.
we haven't been given any details on tide conditions or wind conditions during, or prior to said transit.
having sailed on the Chessie for over 20 yrs i know that water levels can be affected several feet , either way, above or below mean high or low water by how strong winds have been driving water and in what direction.
its pure baloney to try to blame the charter co for this. for all we know the last time the owner was through the pass it was fine and he got through.
personally, imo, if your that bad a skipper to go blasting through a pass that was questionable and ran hard aground, then you shouldn't have been skippering the boat.
this was solely your mistake.
First; the owner said that said pass wasn't a problem. it may well be that the last time he was through it it wasn't a problem. it has been stated that it was silted in. sometimes passes can silt up in one storm over a couple of days.
second; when transiting a pass if its charted at 6 feet and you draw 5 then the prudent and knowledgeable captain would go slowly. obviously you were going way to fast for conditions, if to drive yourself so hard aground in silt so as make it impossible to get out on your own.
we haven't been given any details on tide conditions or wind conditions during, or prior to said transit.
having sailed on the Chessie for over 20 yrs i know that water levels can be affected several feet , either way, above or below mean high or low water by how strong winds have been driving water and in what direction.
its pure baloney to try to blame the charter co for this. for all we know the last time the owner was through the pass it was fine and he got through.
personally, imo, if your that bad a skipper to go blasting through a pass that was questionable and ran hard aground, then you shouldn't have been skippering the boat.
this was solely your mistake.
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Well, where I ran aground was charted at 14 ft. At Low Low Mean Tide. It was outside the pass by 1/4 mile.
Wind was abeam at about 10 knots, seas were 2 ft. coming every 5 seconds, classified a moderate chop. Nearer the coast where we gounded the swells grew to 3 ft. Tide was low but coming in, (small moon) it would raise about a foot in the next 4 hours. visibility was good, we could see other sandbars and white sand which were easily avoided.
Once we grounded the waves bounced us from sandbar to sandbar which eventually pushed us into shallower water where we finally stuck fast about 2 hours after first contact.
(yes there are lots of things you people can't know, as you were not there. Like how much the charter owner pretty much insisted that we take that pass and not the one that was an hour down the coast. Later he admitted to me that his last information came from a previous charter customer that confused the two passes, which accounts for the reason he was so insistent that I take the pass he directed me toward. Many posters have assume this and that, and it is mostly negative, BTW.)
Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c
Not sure what anyone can tell you that you have not already read - sue and tell you accountant be ready for an expensive fight you might win or lose depending on how the SC case Wink cited applies (in which case you get half the $$$ back) or continue to grouse about it here
Not sure what anyone can tell you that you have not already read - sue and tell you accountant be ready for an expensive fight you might win or lose depending on how the SC case Wink cited applies (in which case you get half the $$$ back) or continue to grouse about it here
Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c
This discussion is a good example of why the shoals around cape hatteras are called the grave yard of the Atlantic. The wind and wave conspire to drive a boat hard aground and they start many miles from shore. On another thread I lammented that there is very little information about how to sail slowly in a case such as this. I can strike my sails and motor at 2 knots but I can also reef and trim my sails to sail at 2 knots. Everyone should know how to sail slowly as well as being able to sail fast.
This discussion is a good example of why the shoals around cape hatteras are called the grave yard of the Atlantic. The wind and wave conspire to drive a boat hard aground and they start many miles from shore. On another thread I lammented that there is very little information about how to sail slowly in a case such as this. I can strike my sails and motor at 2 knots but I can also reef and trim my sails to sail at 2 knots. Everyone should know how to sail slowly as well as being able to sail fast.
Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c
Somewhat off subject.. If you have Google Earth look at this pass.. Then in the tool bar select the little clock and push the time back while looking at the pass.. The actual deep water has curved to the southeast and moved closer to the east side of the pass over the years and from the looks of it in latest images, the original pass to the west of the now deep water has almost completely silted in..a few places on the chart marked with deep water appear to be very shallow now.. Interesting
Somewhat off subject.. If you have Google Earth look at this pass.. Then in the tool bar select the little clock and push the time back while looking at the pass.. The actual deep water has curved to the southeast and moved closer to the east side of the pass over the years and from the looks of it in latest images, the original pass to the west of the now deep water has almost completely silted in..a few places on the chart marked with deep water appear to be very shallow now.. Interesting
Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c
Tow insurance is like $150 a year. With it you can go balls to the wall through any pass smiling,
(as all the lawyers frown because there will be no cause for litigation) even as you run aground.
When I moved my boat to the first marina I was at, the owner was directing me by cell phone ,within stones throwing distance, in past a tricky sand bar at low tide. I was so close to the slip. Just as he said, alright now bring her on in, I ran aground. After I finally work it off and get into the slip he tells me 'there are two kinds of sailors, those who have run aground and those who lie about it'. I thought 'then there is those that trust others to their navigation and run aground.' I guess we both fit into the third, oh yeah and I fit into the second as well.
Tow insurance is like $150 a year. With it you can go balls to the wall through any pass smiling,
(as all the lawyers frown because there will be no cause for litigation) even as you run aground.
When I moved my boat to the first marina I was at, the owner was directing me by cell phone ,within stones throwing distance, in past a tricky sand bar at low tide. I was so close to the slip. Just as he said, alright now bring her on in, I ran aground. After I finally work it off and get into the slip he tells me 'there are two kinds of sailors, those who have run aground and those who lie about it'. I thought 'then there is those that trust others to their navigation and run aground.' I guess we both fit into the third, oh yeah and I fit into the second as well.
Not gonna sue. I am sure Wink is correct, that if I did, I would have a case, but potatoes are way too small. But I did find it interesting how inflexible and dogmatic most responders were, considering they could only have a partial understanding of the situation. Allowing for the possibility that a charter company could be partially liable for it's preparation and recommendations would have been a more reasoned tack.
And just for fun! Take a look.
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Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c
Susquehanna flats is about 25 square miles of water that looks just like that. It is so thin that in the summertime the young people set up volleyball nets and play at low tide.. In the area just south of Rock Hall Md on the Chesapeake bay is a submerged island that used to be Swan Island For those of us not intimately familar with the area it is a 3 mile trip down and 3 miles back up to get to Rock Hall harbor but for those that know the land marks there is a pass across the shallows. I know that it is there but I don't know how to find it. Therefore I sail the long way around just to stay out of trouble. There are many places for a boater to get into trouble but there are many ways to avoid that trouble. If you don't know the area then it is prudent to be cautious.
Susquehanna flats is about 25 square miles of water that looks just like that. It is so thin that in the summertime the young people set up volleyball nets and play at low tide.. In the area just south of Rock Hall Md on the Chesapeake bay is a submerged island that used to be Swan Island For those of us not intimately familar with the area it is a 3 mile trip down and 3 miles back up to get to Rock Hall harbor but for those that know the land marks there is a pass across the shallows. I know that it is there but I don't know how to find it. Therefore I sail the long way around just to stay out of trouble. There are many places for a boater to get into trouble but there are many ways to avoid that trouble. If you don't know the area then it is prudent to be cautious.
Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c
MERGATROID quote from page five "Well, where I ran aground was charted at 14 ft. At Low Low Mean Tide. It was outside the pass by 1/4 mile."
MERGATROID original post quote "I run aground in the pass he approved."
OK you can't have it both ways either you ran aground in the pass or you didn't ! 1/4 mile is a long way off...............
Sorry got to say it but time to " MAN IT UP "
MERGATROID quote from page five "Well, where I ran aground was charted at 14 ft. At Low Low Mean Tide. It was outside the pass by 1/4 mile."
MERGATROID original post quote "I run aground in the pass he approved."
OK you can't have it both ways either you ran aground in the pass or you didn't ! 1/4 mile is a long way off...............
Sorry got to say it but time to " MAN IT UP "
lots of stuff coming out, after the fact.
first; stated boat draws 5.5ft, pass is 3ft. theoretically should not have been able to get through. then runs hard aground 1/4 mile outside in 3ft of water that was charted 14ft.
just where is this pass? inquiring sailors would like to know , so if they use the same waters to sail they would be aware of the gross difference between charted depths and reality.
most knowledgeable sailors on the east coast ,that sail in and out of inlets to the Atlantic are aware that shoals shift drastically near these inlets, case in point is barneget inlet in n.j.
it is even noted on charts to be careful near this inlet, that shoals shift dramatically and quickly.
hind sight is always 20/20, but you stated that you bounced around for 2 hours prior to being pushed hard aground. why didn't you do a 180degree turn around when you first bumped? didn't your motor work to keep you from being pushed? you knew from whence you came, why didn't you go back to where you knew you had deep water?
this sounds like an inexperienced skipper with big boats and coastal waters.
sorry but it sounds like you just plain goofed and want to blame someone else.
first; stated boat draws 5.5ft, pass is 3ft. theoretically should not have been able to get through. then runs hard aground 1/4 mile outside in 3ft of water that was charted 14ft.
just where is this pass? inquiring sailors would like to know , so if they use the same waters to sail they would be aware of the gross difference between charted depths and reality.
most knowledgeable sailors on the east coast ,that sail in and out of inlets to the Atlantic are aware that shoals shift drastically near these inlets, case in point is barneget inlet in n.j.
it is even noted on charts to be careful near this inlet, that shoals shift dramatically and quickly.
hind sight is always 20/20, but you stated that you bounced around for 2 hours prior to being pushed hard aground. why didn't you do a 180degree turn around when you first bumped? didn't your motor work to keep you from being pushed? you knew from whence you came, why didn't you go back to where you knew you had deep water?
this sounds like an inexperienced skipper with big boats and coastal waters.
sorry but it sounds like you just plain goofed and want to blame someone else.
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and that is why you should be out the $600 and why this is all turning into a theoretical arguement, which if continues will be bounced into the War Room.
i missed some of the intermediate posts.
i missed the location post. however, since kloudie found and noted that it was on the chart that frequent shoaling shifts occur in this area then he should have been very careful transiting this area. it stated that individual markers were not on the chart from a certain point to another because of frequent changing of locations. it states that they are there, but not on the chart. it sounds as though there were markers but merg neglected to stay within the marked channel, and consequently got into trouble.
sorry but this still seems to me to be the skippers bo-bo.
this is the exact same thing that is noted all along the jersey coast charts for most inlets.
mariner always beware!!!!!!!!!
i missed the location post. however, since kloudie found and noted that it was on the chart that frequent shoaling shifts occur in this area then he should have been very careful transiting this area. it stated that individual markers were not on the chart from a certain point to another because of frequent changing of locations. it states that they are there, but not on the chart. it sounds as though there were markers but merg neglected to stay within the marked channel, and consequently got into trouble.
sorry but this still seems to me to be the skippers bo-bo.
this is the exact same thing that is noted all along the jersey coast charts for most inlets.
mariner always beware!!!!!!!!!
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If you read the OP you will note I asked, "how much is my fault" I did not ask, "was I at fault"? Of course I was at fault, the question was how much.
Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c
Merg, I am still in the 50/50 opinion. That guy should not have told you the pass was OK.. I really do think he should either cough up half or give you a credit for the amount above his $100 on the next charter.. (might be a way to get you to return on better terms) Have you proposed the $250 credit to him as an option?? Not trying to pick your wounds here but he might bite if it is in conjunction with some future business..
Good luck with it, Merg.
Merg, I am still in the 50/50 opinion. That guy should not have told you the pass was OK.. I really do think he should either cough up half or give you a credit for the amount above his $100 on the next charter.. (might be a way to get you to return on better terms) Have you proposed the $250 credit to him as an option?? Not trying to pick your wounds here but he might bite if it is in conjunction with some future business..
Good luck with it, Merg.
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