What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter comp.

[Old Skool Neil]

I plan a vacation in Florida involving a charter, arrive with my family, my inflatables and 3 days worth of chicken salad sandwiches, and find I am confronted with a boat that lacks a depth finder and the merchant telling not to worry as the course is passable. Do I deflate the stegasaurus, dump the sandwiches, turn on my heel, snub the boat, and head home, or do I give in to the pleading and slightly recriminating sets of eyes on the dock and hope the charter outfit knows whereof it speaks? While consumers do have the power of "no", one must also consider the relative bargaining position as well.

Took the long road to get there and I see your point of expectant family looking to you to provide their long awaited vacation but where do you draw the line?

If the cabin sole is awash yet the merchant says not to worry, the bilge pump is sufficient to handle it, do you still go? If one of the shrouds is parted yet the merchant says not to worry, been that way for years with no problem, do you still go? If you smell gasoline fumes in the cabin but the merchant says no worries, just run the blower, do you still go?

And it's not only safety items. If the head doesn't work and the merchant says there are plenty of shore facilities available on your planned route, do you still go? Remember, your family is looking at you wistfully. Their look might change as they're dookin' in a bucket.

From a financial point of view, if you're paying full freight you should expect full service. I think this instance goes beyond finance though. You're the captain, the safety and enjoyment of your crew is on your shoulders. Wonder how much fun the crew had while stranded for hours, what was their look then?

When it comes to the safety of my family or crew, they can eat their sandwiches at a park before I'll subject them to questionable circumstances. They don't like it, tough. If I'm the captain, it's my call.

 

[Brian D]

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

The depth sounder in a moot issue. Show me in any regulation that a boat has to have a depth sounder. You will never find one unless it is maybe a tanker or naval vessel. So I think we should really get off this depth sounder.

The owner of the boat should have briefed Merg on what is happening currently. Merg on the other hand should have researched his sailing area if nothing more than a warm and fuzzy. If I were the judge, I would hold both responsible 50/50. I personally believe our culture has turned into a "not responsible for..." culture. Everywhere you look you see "not responsible" for this or that.

The owner of the boat neglected to inform the user that there is an unsafe passage. If the owner tried and Merg said "yeah, yeah", then Merg would be 100%.

 

[jimmyb]

There have been several allusions in this thread to the erosion or personal responsibility in America. To me, this is a very simplistic approach to a very complicated problem. America has transitioned from a balanced manufacturing consumer economy to a largely consumer economy in which we still manage to invent and design a lot of what we consume, but don't make much of it. Having proceeded a long wy down this path, economically and culturally, there is no going back any time soon, so he culture of consumption, good or bad, is here. The power of that culture should not be underestimated. It begins to work on us [or perhaps our children more so] shortly after birth in many forms. It is powerful, slick, subtle, unrelenting and brilliant in its ability to create both desire and demand for things we may or may not really need. The reach and magnitude of theat power can be seen when tribesmen of Borneo are talking on cell phones and wondering when they too will be able to see Oprah on a plasma TV. The marketplace is a vicious and perilous place in which the vast majority of condiitioned-from-childhood consumers are completely outgunned and overwhelmed [populations fall into a bell shaped curve. A number at one end are impossibly naive; and a number at the other, shrewd, analytical and able to protect themselves. Those of us in the middle have little chance without some form of consumer protection]. My point is that there is a line somewhere between individual responsibility in the form of caveat emptor, and imposing on merchants some obligations with regard to their business practices. I plan a vacation in Florida involving a charter, arrive with my family, my inflatables and 3 days worth of chicken salad sandwiches, and find I am confronted with a boat that lacks a depth finder and the merchant telling not to worry as the course is passable. Do I deflate the stegasuarus, dump the sandwiches, turn on my heel, snub the boat, and head home, or do I give in to the pleading and slightly recriminating sets of eyes on the dock and hope the charter outfit knows whereof it speaks? While cosumers do have the power of "no", one must also consider the relative bargaining position as well.

???????????? what?
may I say politely and with all due respect, hog wash. we are a nation of litigation and the younger generations will feel more and more entitled until forced to have some kind of individual responsibility. The blade of consumer protection cuts both ways. It can destroy small buisness men and women with rediculous requirements to avoid frivilous lawsuits which seem to be more and more succesful every day.

buyer beware, not all information is good information, insurance can be a good thing and the captain is now better off for his newly gained knowledge of how not to rely on ANYONE but himself and his own abilities. Life does have a way of kickin us all in the tender spots at times but we cannot pass the buck. Sorry to hear of anyone getting screwed (and I do think you were in that the boat should have been in complete working condition if advertized as such) but who of us hasnt due to our own poor judgement, even if it is trusting someone we think should know better.

Better luck to you next time, jimmyb

 

[Bill Roosa]

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

hurump! jimmyb

Reality grows out of the barrel of a gun. Best your children learn this at home at an early age and not somewhere else later.

You can trust your battle buddy/first mate
You can trust your spouse and
You can trust Jesus

I keep an eye on everybody else

 

[kloudie1]

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

My gut feel is like Brian's.. It should be a 50/50 deal on the tow.. even though the owner didn't actually know, he may have suggested that the pass was OK.. he should have known and if he didn't, should have looked at the LNM's.. There should have to be no litigation.. the owner should fess up and Merg should cough up his part .. that is already established.. a handshake deal with a lesson learned and a beer afterwards.. like genuine seafarers..

 

[jimmyb]

hurump! jimmyb

Reality grows out of the barrel of a gun. Best your children learn this at home at an early age and not somewhere else later.

You can trust your battle buddy/first mate
You can trust your spouse and
You can trust Jesus

I keep an eye on everybody else

Bill,
you found 3 to trust, good for you. me too!
trust is something that is built in layers, as the layers stack and bond it becomes very strong but early on it can be proved to be unworthy of holding the load.

God Bless, jimmyb

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

I've stated my position but want to add that if I were on Mergatroid's side of the issue (I'm not), I'd give the merchant a call to tell him where he could pick up his boat with the non-functioning sounder, grounded in a pass that he said was clear.

 

[Bill Roosa]

three thoughts

If you receive "local knowledge" from an anonymous voice over the VHF and ran aground whose fault would it be?
If you received same from a guy at a nearby marina whose fault would it be?
If the chart said it was passable and you ran aground whose fault would it be?

I still feel that the navigation of the boat is the primary responsibility of the skipper no matter how much assistance from others he/she gets.

My ex tried to get directions up Whitehall Cr. after dark via cell phone. We ran aground because I was arguing with her to keep a look out with me. That was my fault not the guy on the cell phone's or my ex'es
Perhaps my opinion is because I have run aground so many times I really can't see why anyone would get so aground that they could not get off in short order. BTW we did not have a depth sounder on our boat at the time and we just followed the daymarks up the Creek. Except that sand bar that stuck out 20 ft from the shore that was on the chart and which I know I would have missed had I been paying more attention to the boat and less to my ex'es phone conversation. Took us all of about 20 minutes to get off as we were going faster than I would have if I had known how close to shore we where.

 

[Roger Long]

The depth sounder in a moot issue.

Not exactly. Part of the legal definition of seaworthiness is that everything is working. A boat with a non-functioning depth sounder could be considered to be "unseaworthy" even though the same boat, if not required to have one by some regulation, would be "seaworthy" if no depth sounder was installed.

The OP accepted command of an unseaworthy vessel and then had an accident directly related to defect that made it unseaworthy. I don't see a sliver of wiggle room here.

If this had been a commercial vessel and the issue was that a seaman was hurt operating a crane, the depth sounder could be an issue even if it had nothing to do with the injury because it would mean that the accident happened on an unseaworthy vessel and that could change the outcome.

 

[mmerriman]

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

1. How much of this is my fault? 100%

2. How much of this is his fault? 0%

sorry buddy - but you should know the answer to this question before gettig behind the helm of a boat.

 

[Mergatroid]

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

This issue is not as black and white as it appears at first glance. Granted, I was the one out the $700 bucks and that might tinge my view, but it seems that there is an “old school” of thought that says, in a manly seafaring voice (envision a guy carrying a duffel and wearing Old Spice, “the captain should have known and be totally responsible!”

There seems to be another school of thought that feels that the buyer/renter is entitled to a minimum level of service that includes SIMPLE local knowledge from a the source that claims some certification i.e. being a Coast Guard licensed captain that can charter boats and hire himself for charter.

Question, if he was at the helm and ran aground using his own advice, who would be at fault?

Question, if I was at the helm and he was aboard and we ran aground using his advice, who would be at fault?

 

[Bill Roosa]

Duah, the captain

If you where in a car that had an accident and killed someone who is at fault? The driver or the passenger or do they share.
The captain is responsible for ALL things that go on the boat. Really don't see that any court in the land is going to see it any other way.
Now if there was some piece of equipment that was inop and you where not made aware of it during the walk through with the charter agent and that piece of equipment was instrumental in the grounding you MIGHT have a leg to stand on but since you knew that the dept sounder was inop before the grounding ......
Command is a lonely place ain't it?

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

This issue is not as black and white as it appears at first glance. Granted, I was the one out the $700 bucks and that might tinge my view, but it seems that there is an “old school” of thought that says, in a manly seafaring voice (envision a guy carrying a duffel and wearing Old Spice, “the captain should have known and be totally responsible!”

There seems to be another school of thought that feels that the buyer/renter is entitled to a minimum level of service that includes SIMPLE local knowledge from a the source that claims some certification i.e. being a Coast Guard licensed captain that can charter boats and hire himself for charter.

Question, if he was at the helm and ran aground using his own advice, who would be at fault?

Question, if I was at the helm and he was aboard and we ran aground using his advice, who would be at fault?

It appears the consensus is that it is black and white. You are not "entitled" to anything unless a contract stipulates it - you depended on advice and being from a local guy, you assumed it was correct. The key words here are "advice" and "assumed".

I think the answers to your two questions are the same.

Consider it an expensive lesson.

 

[Mergatroid]

If you where in a car that had an accident and killed someone who is at fault? The driver or the passenger or do they share.

Not that simple. Suppose the passenger was the owner of the rented vehicle, the driving instructor and the final authority as to your ability to rent the vehicle. Then what?

Just not as clear-cut as some make it. Good exercise for the brain what?

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

Ask Bismark Dinius where the legal assumption of responsibility lies.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Not that simple. Suppose the passenger was the owner of the rented vehicle, the driving instructor and the final authority as to your ability to rent the vehicle. Then what?

Just not as clear-cut as some make it. Good exercise for the brain what?

who drove into the tree? the owner?, the passenger?, the instructor?, or, what for it....

 

[Mergatroid]

you depended on advice and being from a local guy, you assumed it was correct.

Not a problem Don. I consider it an expensive lesson.

But....

This was not a local "guy". He was the owner of the vessel. A Coast Guard licensed captain. Licensed to charter and hire himself out for charter.

I have a hard time believing that he bares NO responsibility what-so-ever, and that is what I am hearing. It does not seem reasonable.

If I give financial advice, an individual takes it, I still retain SOME level of responsibility. The SOME sometimes loses me a client. The SOME sometimes causes a claim on my Errors and Omissions Insurance and the SOME sometimes is shrugged off by my client which I gladly buy lunch.

 

[petersea]

Ask Bismark Dinius where the legal assumption of responsibility lies.

Neil,

Interesting you should have posted this comment as I was thinking the of doing the same thing, very interesting thread was going on about this during the trial.

 

[zeehag]

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

renter beware. buyer beware. sailor--know thy path and how to get thru withut charts?? isnt tha tlike going skiing or sight seeing in the desert without a map?? so, if this is the case---why would one even consider going anywhere without knowing the terrain?? seems a kind of not safe thing to do . there are many things to learn from using charts. like how deep is the water and tidal flows and stuff----hidden stuff underwater---

i cannot understand how someone who rents a boat from a company wouldnt have some kind of idea of the area from a chart combined with google earth and whatever sources possible for seeing the terrain underwater so as to avoid running aground or worse.

why is it we make so much of blaming others--we re responsible for our own actions.
no one else is responsible for our actions. no one MADE anyone do anything that one didnt want to do . i really donot understand the passing off of that responsibility.

 

[higgs]

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

Ross: If you loan me your car and tell me it will make it to to chicago - is it my fault if it doesn't get there?