What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter comp.

higgs · Oct 6, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

C'mon: You rent a boat from someone who says the depth sounder doesn't work, but don't worry I know where you can go. You are unfamiliar with the area and he has local knowledge. He says don't worry about the depth sounder that doesn't work but you can get into harobor X. You aren't going to take the local guy at his word?

RichH · Oct 6, 2010

higgs said:
C'mon: You rent a boat from someone who says the depth sounder doesn't work, but don't worry I know where you can go. You are unfamiliar with the area and he has local knowledge. He says don't worry about the depth sounder that doesn't work but you can get into harobor X. You aren't going to take the local guy at his word?

That would apply in the overly-litigious USA and if the 'communication/advise' was written down then notarized, sometimes. In the rest of the world, its caveat emptor, and you are the captain ... mon.

wufibugs · Oct 6, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

Being new to sailing, I find this discussion intriguing because there is some suggestion that one can "fashion" a depth gauge our of things commonly found on a boat. On the other hand, if we are talking about a weighted line and someone stainding on the prow manning this line, that's another matter. My analysis requires a few assumptions, and a little reading between the lines.
1. I don't spend a lot of money renting a recreational yacht of some kind just to position my wife on the prow with a line and a wrench yelling out draft estimates.
2. A person in the business of renting recreational equipment is at least responsible to ensure that the equipment will function for the reasonably predictable conditions. You don't rent someone heading into the Mohave a canteen they need to check every half hour for leaks. When I say function, I don't mean to include unforeseeable malfunctions.
3. Silting is not normally a unique or surprise event, but most often a recurring one.
4. When you are in the business of renting something that is potentially dangerous, and boats are just that, casual or careless advice is verbotten. I distinguish here between me renting or loaning my boat to someone who professes to know sailing, and a person in the rental business who has a much greater resonsibility to the public. If you're not reasonably sure, best to either profess complete ignorance, or provide instruction on how to navigate an area one is unsure about.
5. A person who rents a boat that does not have a functional depth gauge would reasonably assume the gauge is not terribly necessary in that area. Unless silting was hitherto unheard of, it was irresponsible for the lessor to rent a boat in that condition without a distinct warning and written disclaimer.
6. Arrayed against that, is the principle that the captain is always at fault. While that is probably a truism of the sea, I don't think it trumps consumer protection priciples that apply to the rental business, whether water is involved or not. Someone who rents you a windsurfer at a beach known for 12 foot waves and vicious rip currents, without recommeding a life vest or word of warning, is criminally negligent no matter how obvious the surf conditions.

petersea · Oct 7, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

OK sorry to hear about your run aground incident and I will assess fault on the boat operator.
Just a thought would Tow Boats US or Seatow have covered you as a charter boat operator ?? Might be something to check into for next time. If they (towboat or seatow) cover the operator your tow bill would have been limited or included depending on what level tow plan you purchase. I think it is the operator of the boat that is covered. Cheap insurance or maybe see if the charter company has insurance to cover this ?? $700 sounds a little expensive for what I am assuming is a "soft grounding" in a silted over channel.
Worse case scenario chalk it up to one of life's lessons.

gettinthere · Oct 7, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

I agree with higgs first assessment...50/50. you should not have taken the boat with a broken depthfinder.

the real question to ask is what financial interest does the charter operator have with the towing company? This sounds like a setup to me.
They sent the renter over a shoaled inlet of 3' with a 5.5' draft. They should have known this was bad advice, it had been shoaled up for over a month.

Brian D · Oct 7, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

I would think that if one was a member of BoatUS or Seatow, it makes no difference what boat you are on. YOU are being covered, not your boat. So if Merg was a BoatUS or Seatow member, it should have cost nothing, or very little. Unless he didn't get the good package.

I also think that the boat owner should have given Merg a chart with areas to stay away from. If Merg were in waters marked with channel markers and he went aground, then he has bones to pick with NOAA or who ever made the charts.

I would also investigate to see if the boat owner has a ties with the tow company. Easy way to make some extra bucks on the side.

Now the real question. Those who have chartered before, have you ever been brief by the charter company what waters are safe and what are not?

Scott B · Oct 7, 2010

Peggie Hall-HeadMistress said:
You rent a car...you drive it off a collapsed bridge....by your logic, that somehow becomes the car rental agency's fault.

You buy a knife...it's sharp...you cut yourself. It's the knife mfr's fault...they didn't warn you that their knives are sharp...

You buy a cup of coffee at the McDonalds drive thru...put it between your legs...it spills and scalds your leg. It's McDonald's fault...that you didn't have a cup holder...

You charter a boat...you steer a course through a closed silted pass and go aground. That's EVERYbody's fault EXCEPT yours!

"I would not expect a person chartering a boat to check for "Notice to Mariners" in a foriegn land."

I would...and so would every other responsible mariner. Oh...I forgot..."responsible mariner" is now an obsolete term.

Sheesh!

But if I bought the coffee from McD and called them several weeks in advance and said I was going to spill that coffee in my lap and they told me it was ok and if I went into the store and said I was here to buy the coffee that I was going to spill in my lap and they said it was ok and gave me the coffee....... it is their fault if I scald myself. This is extreme, but to my point.

When I saw the OP say charter I automatically saw BVI's ( must be getting close to haul-out) hence my "foreign land" quote.

Couple questions, how far is this area from your normal cruising area.
Did the Charter provide you with local charts with the boat.
Was the pass physically marked as being closed or was this a NTM.

I don't know about you guys, but I can't see underwater and see the bottom.

I would think if I was going on a 2 day charter in unfamiliar area and the person that owns the boat ( I'm reading this as a single boat owner ) says the pass I intend to go throiugh is safe I would expect him to have the Notice to Mariners up to date. This wasn't a sudden or recent occurance.

Edit... didn't see your post Brian. That's also what I was trying to get at. Do Charter companies normally provide charts and briefings with the boats.

Bill Roosa · Oct 7, 2010

Leagally...

Are charters required to have depth sounders? I'm pretty sure they are required to have the safety equipment but there are LOTS of items on a sail boat that are not legally required. If you go out with the understanding that non-required item x does not work I would, as a reasonable man, think you would take precautions to insure that item x issues where addressed. In this case you don't know the depth ever so it was probably just a matter of time before you ran aground no matter how much local info you had. The fact that you asked the question about being able to navigate the channel only indicts you. You knew there was an issue even before taking off. If the boat had had no working water supply would you be asking for money because you forgot to bring bottled water? No, you would surly bring bottled water because that is what a reasonable man would be expected to do.

The real issue here is not running aground; it is that you had to pay for it. I suspect that if you had been able to unstick yourself we would not be having this discussion. What techniques did you use to try and get off without a tow? In a court of law a reasonable man would be expected to try a few common techniques before he called for a tow.

I will say that sending someone out in a boat without a depth finder is pretty dumb. I would also say that going out without one is equally dumb.

We are so getting away from being responsible for our own actions in the US that it is pathetic.

Old Skool Neil · Oct 7, 2010

OK, my turn.

Sorry Mergatroid but in my book the captain (you) bears the responsibility. I think the problem started at the dock.

When you rent a car you always walk around it to identify pre-existing damage. Let's say you determined there was a flat tire. Would you still drive off in the car or have the rental company either repair it or get you another car? It was your option to accept the boat with a non functioning depth sounder. At that point you knowingly accepted the responsibility and as it turned out, sealed your fate.

If the question arises "is a depth sounder necessary?", looks to me by the events of your charter, it was. With a non-functioning piece of equipment as essential to the operation of the boat as a depth sounder, you should have walked away on the spot. That's what a responsible captain would have done. Walking away is your only power in the negotiation.

And any experienced captain learned long ago that blindly relying on the advice of others is often a recipe for disaster. Captain Edward Smith relented to demands from White Star executive Bruce Ismay on the bridge of the Titanic and we know how that turned out.

Again, sorry. Not trying to beat you up but in my opinion you should have walked.

Winkfish · Oct 7, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

First of all Sea Tow, for about $300.00 per YEAR, will cover you in your boat or boats, or any boat you charter. Can't beat that deal.

Second of all, you can bet that fault will be apportioned somewhere along the line. Let's suppose that someone, a passenger maybe, was injured because of the grounding. That person is going to sue the charterer/skipper (negligent) and the boat owner (having a defective boat, giving bad advice). A court is going to decide how much at fault each one was.

In Merg's situation, none of that really comes into play. It is a contract dispute between Merg and the boat owner.

Steve Walsh · Oct 7, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

I think the responsibility lies completely with the captain for accepting a boat with a non-working depth finder, especially in waters that he was not routinely sailing. On our third (of 6) BVI bareboat charters, the depthfinder did not work and I refused to leave the slip until they fixed it or got us another boat. I still can't believe they wanted me to depart in those waters with no depth finder. They did replace the tranducer and we were only delayed about 2 hours. Charter company was Tradewinds and no longer in business. I bet their memory would have been very selective if I had run aground and had an insurance claim.

Winkfish · Oct 7, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

My wife and I have bareboat chartered quite a lot with different companies. Every time, before we get the boat, the charter company goes through a checklist with us as well as an inventory. If anything isn't working, they fix it, replace it, or, if it's essential, give us another boat. Most reputable companies won't even hold you so strictly to that, either. For instance, a head began leaking slightly on one charter we did. We pointed it out when we got back. It obviously was not from abuse by us, so they let it slide, though technically they could have nailed us for it.

kloudie1 · Oct 7, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

From September 14 LNM.. Looks pretty risky.. The chart (11425) is marked with a shoaling to 3 1/2 feet from 2004..

The New Pass Entrance Channel is subject to continual change. Buoys are not charted because they are frequently shifted in position. The
controlling depth was 8 feet for a width of 100 feet from LIGHT 7 (LLNR 21620) to the S R Bridge; thence 6 feet for a width of 100 feet to the
Intracoastal Waterway and 8 feet to the basin; 7 feet in the basin except for shoaling to 3 1/2 feet in the southeast section of the basin.
BUOYS NOT CHARTED IN NEW PASS ENTRANCE CHANNEL
- Buoy 1 (LLNR 21590), - Buoy 2 (LLNR 21595), - Buoy 3A (LLNR 21600), - Buoy 5 (LLNR 21605) and - Buoy 5A (LLNR 21610). Mariners are
advised to use caution while transiting this area and view Local Notice to Mariners editions for shoaling information and repositioning of aids to

navigation.

FL West Coast New Pass Extensive shoaling exist from New Pass LT NP (LLNR 1345/21585) to New Pass Channel 11425 3605
LT 7 (LLNR 21620), water depths are constantly changing and surf breaking.

FL

Scott B · Oct 7, 2010

kloudie1 said:
From September 14 LNM.. Looks pretty risky.. The chart (11425) is marked with a shoaling to 3 1/2 feet from 2004..

The New Pass Entrance Channel is subject to continual change. Buoys are not charted because they are frequently shifted in position. The
controlling depth was 8 feet for a width of 100 feet from LIGHT 7 (LLNR 21620) to the S R Bridge; thence 6 feet for a width of 100 feet to the
Intracoastal Waterway and 8 feet to the basin; 7 feet in the basin except for shoaling to 3 1/2 feet in the southeast section of the basin.
BUOYS NOT CHARTED IN NEW PASS ENTRANCE CHANNEL
- Buoy 1 (LLNR 21590), - Buoy 2 (LLNR 21595), - Buoy 3A (LLNR 21600), - Buoy 5 (LLNR 21605) and - Buoy 5A (LLNR 21610). Mariners are
advised to use caution while transiting this area and view Local Notice to Mariners editions for shoaling information and repositioning of aids to

navigation.

FL West Coast New Pass Extensive shoaling exist from New Pass LT NP (LLNR 1345/21585) to New Pass Channel 11425 3605
LT 7 (LLNR 21620), water depths are constantly changing and surf breaking.

FL

Then I will retract my statement if it was that easy for kloudie to look up. You both should have known better.

wufibugs · Oct 7, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

There have been several allusions in this thread to the erosion or personal responsibility in America. To me, this is a very simplistic approach to a very complicated problem. America has transitioned from a balanced manufacturing consumer economy to a largely consumer economy in which we still manage to invent and design a lot of what we consume, but don't make much of it. Having proceeded a long wy down this path, economically and culturally, there is no going back any time soon, so he culture of consumption, good or bad, is here. The power of that culture should not be underestimated. It begins to work on us [or perhaps our children more so] shortly after birth in many forms. It is powerful, slick, subtle, unrelenting and brilliant in its ability to create both desire and demand for things we may or may not really need. The reach and magnitude of theat power can be seen when tribesmen of Borneo are talking on cell phones and wondering when they too will be able to see Oprah on a plasma TV. The marketplace is a vicious and perilous place in which the vast majority of condiitioned-from-childhood consumers are completely outgunned and overwhelmed [populations fall into a bell shaped curve. A number at one end are impossibly naive; and a number at the other, shrewd, analytical and able to protect themselves. Those of us in the middle have little chance without some form of consumer protection]. My point is that there is a line somewhere between individual responsibility in the form of caveat emptor, and imposing on merchants some obligations with regard to their business practices. I plan a vacation in Florida involving a charter, arrive with my family, my inflatables and 3 days worth of chicken salad sandwiches, and find I am confronted with a boat that lacks a depth finder and the merchant telling not to worry as the course is passable. Do I deflate the stegasuarus, dump the sandwiches, turn on my heel, snub the boat, and head home, or do I give in to the pleading and slightly recriminating sets of eyes on the dock and hope the charter outfit knows whereof it speaks? While cosumers do have the power of "no", one must also consider the relative bargaining position as well.

Don S/V ILLusion · Oct 7, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

For a fairly straight-forward issue, things are getting way to esoteric and philosophical.

These are the kind of things that make lawyers salivate - issues which can be argued either way.

What the charter owner "should have done" is never an excuse form what the Captain didn't do.