What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter comp.

higgs · Oct 7, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

Here is another way of looking at this. I you called a marina on the VHF and asked if there was enough water to get in and they assured you there was, are you remiss because you took their word ?

Ross · Oct 7, 2010

higgs said:
Ross: If you loan me your car and tell me it will make it to to chicago - is it my fault if it doesn't get there?

Probably. if you drive in such manner that you abuse the machinery..sometimes it fails but most of the time it goes when and where I wish. I have had it for fifteen years and I have called for towing three times.

jimmyb · Oct 7, 2010

"If I give financial advice, an individual takes it, I still retain SOME level of responsibility. The SOME sometimes loses me a client. The SOME sometimes causes a claim on my Errors and Omissions Insurance and the SOME sometimes is shrugged off by my client which I gladly buy lunch. "

sorry to use your own words as fuel in the fire but exactly how much money have you reimbursed folks when you found the advise you gave them cost them money? I know of no broker who gives a money back guarantee of any sort. You can take their advise and still loose your shirt. Even by the best of the wall street know it alls. I stopped dealliing with them long ago and trade on my own. Doing much better at it and I know the responsibility in BOTH senarios lies with me. Feels somehow better when I loose than when someone else does it for me.

All these different senarios, including mine, are irrelevant in that they are not what happened and what did happen, was IMHO, a bummer. But the way you have to look at it is would you change anything if you were to do it all over again. If not you are expecting something to go better next time and you again are putting faith in the unknown. If you would change something about what you have done you have proven to yourself that you have learned a good lesson and are wiser for it. I would guess the later so if that is the case dont beat yourself up over it. Rely on your own judgement and you will at the very LEAST be wiser than the captain of discussion here.

Again, good luck to you on your next trip, jimmyb

zeehag · Oct 7, 2010

Mergatroid said:
Zee. Been there, done that. Knew the area as well as anyone who was not local could. Tides, tidal flow, sunrise, sunset, watched the weather for a month, Google earth is way way out of date, BTW. Not trying to blame anyone else, BUT.

And it is a big BUT.

But, If I was that captain, using my Coast Guard license to make a living, using it to instill confidence in my prospective clients, I would feel bad for misdirecting my client into an impassable pass. How good could I be?

I just wondered if anyone else felt the same. Mostly they don't and you should never charter from them. They would not take responsibility for there bad advice and possibly put their license at risk.

yes, if i gave bad info and someone had a problem a s a result, i would feel realllly bad. but, then again, as a renter, prolly would have been so nervous about it being someone else's boat i prolly woulda had a spotter on the bow. i dont like using other peoples stuff--- was a gas on another peoples boat last yr sailing gulf-- but the owner was there -- is different. i feel bad grounding someone elses boat and i would feel bad misdirecting folks, should that problem come into play ever.

mebbe using one of those hand held fishfinders when on a charter cruise??? something for seeing what is under ye? lotta lead line readings? spotter on bow?? what would fix the problem? what is a goood way to have this not happen to anyone again? is there a repair? so far, we have disagreed as well as agreed with ye-- so, now, how can this problem find solution so as to not have to happen again? i there one thing could be done to avoid this mishap?

Andy1237 · Oct 7, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

If I lose the regatta this weekend I'm going to blame all you people that posted sail trim and racing instructions! HA HA Just trying to inject a little levity here..some of you were not playing nice.
My honest opinion, it was the boats Captain that stands responsible but the charter company should feel more than $100 bad feelings. And I bet Mergatroid (and friends) will never charter with that company again. Wonder if that company will fire that local captain? If it happened again I certainly would.

petersea · Oct 8, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

just as a side note to the issue I checked on Boats US tow boat web site and they will cover the operator of a charter boat. Different plans available but unlimited plan is $125 plus membership. May want to think about it. I have had it for eight years and plan on renewing next year. At least this would have reduced the pain of a $700 tow bill.

Winkfish · Oct 8, 2010

Bill Roosa said:
The captain is responsible for ALL things that go on the boat. Really don't see that any court in the land is going to see it any other way.

Bill, with all due respect, you're plain wrong.

Maritime law, and most, if not all states, have "comparative fault" in their tort(negligence) law. A court will compare the fault of each party on a % basis and award damages accordingly. Suppose Merg sued the boat owner for giving him faulty advice and the court found Merg 60% at fault and the boat owner 40% at fault. Merg would get 40% of his $700 back.

If a contract is involved, the contract would generally control.

You may not like it, but that's the way it is. The law is not allowing Merg to avoid responsibility, it's making sure everyone accepts responsibility for their fault.

Ross · Oct 8, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

There is a simple make shift depth sounder that is very reliable. it is made with a 3-way swivel and large lead sinker and a fishing bobber. Attach thre feet of line each to the bobber and the sinker and the two legs of the swivel and the line from a casting rod to the third leg on the swivel. Flip it out in front of the boat and if the bobber sinks you have six feet of water, if it floats you don't.

wonkodsane · Oct 8, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

They did not cover that $100 to be nice. They knew they were culpable to a degree and wanted to give you the impression that they were being nice and head off your trying to get them to cover a more appropriate amount based on their level of responsibility.

Don S/V ILLusion · Oct 8, 2010

Winkfish said:
Bill, with all due respect, you're plain wrong.

Maritime law, and most, if not all states, have "comparative fault" in their tort(negligence) law. A court will compare the fault of each party on a % basis and award damages accordingly. Suppose Merg sued the boat owner for giving him faulty advice and the court found Merg 60% at fault and the boat owner 40% at fault. Merg would get 40% of his $700 back.

If a contract is involved, the contract would generally control.

You may not like it, but that's the way it is. The law is not allowing Merg to avoid responsibility, it's making sure everyone accepts responsibility for their fault.

Maritime law is far too complex to generalize, however, i do think Bill is plain right.
Tort liability resolution is first a function of existing statute, regulation or compelling case law . If there is one generality that is true in any maritime liability case, it would be that the captain holds total control and therefore total responsibility. Not to say someone might manage to apportion financial liability but those scenarios are the exception to the rule.

What I find particularly interesting is how many captains (of their own or anyone elses' boats) here seem to think they are not completely accountable for what they do.

Ross · Oct 8, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

There are notes on charts to indicate that sh#t happens and some of the buoyage may be out of place. The prudent mariner does not rely on only one set of navigation aids. All commericially reproduced NOAA charts are marked "Not to be used for navigation."

Winkfish · Oct 8, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

Don, it's not that complex, and apportionment of fault is not the exception to the rule. It is the rule. How many case citations would you like? Here's one: United States vs. Reliable Transfer Co., 95 S. Ct. 1708 (Decided May 1975) - "[FONT=&quot]We hold that when two or more parties have contributed by their fault to cause property damage in a maritime collision or stranding, liability for such damage is to be allocated among the parties proportionately to the comparative degree of their fault, and that liability for such damages is to be allocated equally only when the parties are equally at fault or when it is not possible fairly to measure the comparative degree of their fault." This case involved dividing the fault between the captain of a ship for running aground and the Coast Guard which did not maintain the light marking a breakwater.

[/FONT]Fault is apportioned by the courts in maritime cases all the time.

Old Skool Neil · Oct 8, 2010

Winkfish said:
Suppose Merg sued the boat owner for giving him faulty advice and the court found Merg 60% at fault and the boat owner 40% at fault. Merg would get 40% of his $700 back.

Yeah, after he drops $3K - $5K on a lawyer!
Accordingly Winkfish, I echo your comment:

Winkfish said:
You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

Hermit Scott · Oct 8, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

I have not been at the helm long, but I don't feel comfortable in my own boat with out the depth sounder on outside the marina, much less someone else's boat in waters I don't know. Charts seem to be a good guide but they aren't guaranteed. The depth sounder is something you have to be able to rely on, like a seatbelt. It just needs to work.
Maybe the local captain didn't know about the silt in the pass. If I was a judge deciding this as a case, I would side with the local captain solely on the fact the Merg took command of a boat that did not have the proper instruments for ANYONE to navigate it.

And are you people really hanging off the bow with a leadline? That sounds like a fun vacation.

Don S/V ILLusion · Oct 8, 2010

Re: What do you think? Ran aground on advice from charter c

Wink
As I said, "Not to say someone might manage to apportion financial liability" and if I were to look back as far as 1975 as you did, i could probably find more. By highlighting these kinds of resolutions, someone such as hermit who is new may infer they, as captain, don't have the responsibility that many folks here seem to believe is total. I am not familiar with the elements of this 1975 case but can only presume there is more to it than simply excerpting the judgment. Regardless, I'm sure you would agree that the importance of personal responsibility and accountability for one's actions shouldn't be diminished.