What are you doing for JACKLINES?

[dLj]

I don't see this at all. Most of the cruisers making passages don't have "electronic gizmos" for MOB, and I've never been involved in a beach conversation about them (which is probably the ONLY electronics I've not had beach conversations about). It just isn't a focus with anyone I've met. I'm not sure what electronic gizmos even means outside of a PLB. Most of the old electronic systems like tags, etc have gone the way of the dodo. I think ACR still has one system, but I've never seen anyone with it.

You don't have electronic gizmos?

In your post above in post #6:

“If for some reason everything fails and a person is in the water, our jackets have built in DSC/AIS beacons in them that cause several devices on our boat to start screaming, and a MOB position automatically plotted and tracked on the plotter, the VHF, the AIS and any computer/phone/tablet in operation.”

Let's see you just posted your jackets have built in DCC/AIS beacons, you have several devices that will “start screaming” and you mention the plotter, VHF, AIS and any computer/phone/table in operation....

And you go on to say you've never had a conversation about any of this with anyone when you just did...

Not sure what to make of that statement.... Ah, perhaps you didn't like my term "gizmos".... It's probably an age thing...

dj

 

[thinwater]

You can get high strength dyneema webbing from McMaster - 1" wide rated at 7000 pounds breaking strength. It's not cheap but dyneema is UV resistant, salt water resistant and is considered abrasion resistant. If you set it up running longitudinally on your boat then the lack of stretch is not a problem. The geometry gives enough shock absorption coupled with your tether itself to not be a problem.

I am a firm believer in having everyone on board walk through how to move around on the boat tethered in before shoving off. I've yet to see a boat with a "perfect" tether system where you don't have to switch connection points at some point. Walking through the whole system usually a couple times working out all the details of where you do what I consider very useful. I also test to make sure my tether system at no point allows me to be thrown outside of the lifelines at least at critical locations - especially working at the bow or mast. On my boat I have granny bars at the mast which are really nice but I've been on plenty of boats that don't have them.

It can take a lot of planning to get tethers placed to make their use both simple and such that you can't go over the lifelines.

In my opinion, it's especially critical for solo offshore sailors to have tether systems very well designed and built. All the electronic gizmos aren't doing much to keep you alive if you are more than 200 nm offshore. All they really do is make finding your dead body easier. The probability of another boat being close enough to reach you in time to save you is very small. At 200 NM offshore, it will take a minimum of 48 hours for SAR personnel to reach where you are. The probability of surviving for that time frame is extremely low, even less so if you are sailing in higher latitudes.

It seems to me that currently we spend a lot of time "shopping" for safety instead of designing and building for safety. I'm not opposed to all the electronic gizmos, but I feel the focus should be on designing and building a system, or systems, that simply keep you on the boat - and knowing how to use them.

In my opinion, the primary focus needs to be making sure nobody can fall off the boat. Get that down first, then work on the backup systems for the location of a MOB. It sure feels to me the focus today is flipped with "let's get all the electronic gizmos" - then let's talk about keeping people on the boat. Well at least we are talking about keeping people on the boat - although a bit superficially. However, the problem with going deeper than that is it becomes boat specific.

dj

Yup.
The primary advantage of using Dyneema single-braid for jacklines is that it can be spliced by most anyone at full strength. Stitching Dyneema webbing to full strength is tricky and requires practice and testing of samples.

As you imply, you need to work the systems out and then practice with them. They should feel natural.

 

[colemj]

You don't have electronic gizmos?

In your post above in post #6:

“If for some reason everything fails and a person is in the water, our jackets have built in DSC/AIS beacons in them that cause several devices on our boat to start screaming, and a MOB position automatically plotted and tracked on the plotter, the VHF, the AIS and any computer/phone/tablet in operation.”

Let's see you just posted your jackets have built in DCC/AIS beacons, you have several devices that will “start screaming” and you mention the plotter, VHF, AIS and any computer/phone/table in operation....

And you go on to say you've never had a conversation about any of this with anyone when you just did...

Not sure what to make of that statement.... Ah, perhaps you didn't like my term "gizmos".... It's probably an age thing...

dj

I didn't realize you were counting navigational and communication electronics as part of "gizmos". I'm not sure what to say to this, as it seems to be broadening the point ad absurdum so you can keep that bone in your teeth. Those types of electronics are completely removed from decisions about MOB, and I don't know anyone who approaches that differently.

Are you really faulting people for getting a VHF before a jackline?

As far as I'm concerned, the DSC/AIS PLB is the only "gizmo" we have for MOB, and that was considered holistically with everything else. The devices I mentioned are simply receivers for the PLB. Other receivers include any ships within range that have DSC or AIS receivers.

If you want to take your usual pedantic path of my never having a conversation about this when I just did, then you must pay attention to the point that I said I never had a beach conversation about it. I doubt anyone here is standing on a beach.

Pedantic cuts both ways. Pay attention.

Mark

 

[dLj]

Yup.
The primary advantage of using Dyneema single-braid for jacklines is that it can be spliced by most anyone at full strength. Stitching Dyneema webbing to full strength is tricky and requires practice and testing of samples.

As you imply, you need to work the systems out and then practice with them. They should feel natural.

@thinwater - I'd be really interested in any info about stitching flat dyneema. I don't have any test equipment that could test different designs. If you know of any references to that - I'd be really interested in reading them.

I prefer my jack lines to be flat not round. If I step on them, it doesn't cause any kind of issue.

My default is to do what I consider significant overkill - but having access to actual design testing would be great!

dj

 

[thinwater]

@thinwater - I'd be really interested in any info about stitching flat dyneema. I don't have any test equipment that could test different designs. If you know of any references to that - I'd be really interested in reading them.

I prefer my jack lines to be flat not round. If I step on them, it doesn't cause any kind of issue.

My default is to do what I consider significant overkill - but having access to actual design testing would be great!

dj

a. Stitching method is VERY dependent on the weave. I've done considerable testing, but probably not on the material you have. I suggest sewing a dozen stitches and then breaking it. That should give you an idea of pounds/stitch. Then use twice what you need. Often, it works out to about 40-60% of the breaking strength of the thread x the number of stitches. But test that.

b. I actually tested webbing and 5-6 mm Amsteel on sloped decks. They were actually very similar. But double braid is bad; we've all stepped on it.

 

[dLj]

a. Stitching method is VERY dependent on the weave. I've done considerable testing, but probably not on the material you have. I suggest sewing a dozen stitches and then breaking it. That should give you an idea of pounds/stitch. Then use twice what you need. Often, it works out to about 40-60% of the breaking strength of the thread x the number of stitches. But test that.

b. I actually tested webbing and 5-6 mm Amsteel on sloped decks. They were actually very similar. But double braid is bad; we've all stepped on it.

5 is a bit small with about a 4000 pound breaking strength, but 6 mm is more in line with about 8000 to 9000 pounds tensile strength. I'll have to give that a try and see how I like it. Won't be for some time as my current lines are in good shape. But I can certainly pick some up and walk around on it to see how it feels underfoot.

I don't really have any way to test for strength but I guess I could find someone to do that for me.

That all being said, for the way my boat is set up, i quite like the current webbing as in sections of how my lines are set - it also works as a handhold. But I have an unusual boat...

dj

 

[dLj]

I didn't realize you were counting navigational and communication electronics as part of "gizmos". I'm not sure what to say to this, as it seems to be broadening the point ad absurdum so you can keep that bone in your teeth. Those types of electronics are completely removed from decisions about MOB, and I don't know anyone who approaches that differently.

Are you really faulting people for getting a VHF before a jackline?

As far as I'm concerned, the DSC/AIS PLB is the only "gizmo" we have for MOB, and that was considered holistically with everything else. The devices I mentioned are simply receivers for the PLB. Other receivers include any ships within range that have DSC or AIS receivers.

If you want to take your usual pedantic path of my never having a conversation about this when I just did, then you must pay attention to the point that I said I never had a beach conversation about it. I doubt anyone here is standing on a beach.

Pedantic cuts both ways. Pay attention.

Mark

Look @colemj, If you want to have a conversation I'm all for it - but if you simply are interested in being insulting - I'll pass.

dj

 

[thinwater]

5 is a bit small with about a 4000 pound breaking strength, but 6 mm is more in line with about 8000 to 9000 pounds tensile strength. I'll have to give that a try and see how I like it. Won't be for some time as my current lines are in good shape. But I can certainly pick some up and walk around on it to see how it feels underfoot.

I don't really have any way to test for strength but I guess I could find someone to do that for me.

That all being said, for the way my boat is set up, i quite like the current webbing as in sections of how my lines are set - it also works as a handhold. But I have an unusual boat...

dj

Samson lists 5 mm Amsteel at 5400 pounds. The standard is 5000 pounds.

Small scales are cheap on Amazon, and winches can provide the pull. Alternatively, you can tie it in-line with a cord of known strength and break it.

 

[colemj]

More important is to make a jackline system where the line is never underfoot to begin with. Then that aspect is no longer relevant, and one can use anything appropriate. It isn't difficult with many boats to have the jackline running along a cabin top a bit off the deck. Webbing could be used for the area of the foredeck where the line may have to run.

Mark

 

[Stu Jackson]

Jacklines with line never underfoot: I find the concept is quite a good one, but in reality is hard if not impossible to implement.

Why?

Because if you put the jackline up off the deck, up on the cabintop, then when you do go up on the cabintop you end up standing on it with your foot! On my C25 I used to have to go to the mast to reef the mainsail and if there was a jackline up there where it would be in the right place to clip on to, I'd end up stepping on it! I didn't have a dodger on that boat which made it theoretically easier to rig one. With a dodger, centerline jacklines are much more difficult to design or rig, aren't they?

Gary's sketches in Reply #7 on page one of this thread are the best one could so. Good work, Gary.

More important is to make a jackline system where the line is never underfoot to begin with. Then that aspect is no longer relevant, and one can use anything appropriate. It isn't difficult with many boats to have the jackline running along a cabin top a bit off the deck. Webbing could be used for the area of the foredeck where the line may have to run.

Mark

 

[colemj]

Jacklines with line never underfoot: I find the concept is quite a good one, but in reality is hard if not impossible to implement.

Why?

Because if you put the jackline up off the deck, up on the cabintop, then when you do go up on the cabintop you end up standing on it with your foot! On my C25 I used to have to go to the mast to reef the mainsail and if there was a jackline up there where it would be in the right place to clip on to, I'd end up stepping on it! I didn't have a dodger on that boat which made it theoretically easier to rig one. With a dodger, centerline jacklines are much more difficult to design or rig, aren't they?

Gary's sketches in Reply #7 on page one of this thread are the best one could so. Good work, Gary.

I was thinking about them running alongside the cabin top, not over the top of it. Perhaps the term cabin top was bad and I should have used cabin side or something.

Mark

 

[colemj]

Something like this, using Gary's first drawing and his existing cleats. If the lines can't cross in the stern because they would cut into the cockpit, then a hard attachment point would be installed close to the coaming. Ideally, there would also be a hard attachment point on the forward end of the cabin above the deck to keep the jackline raised off the deck. If the tether didn't allow you to reach the foredeck, then there would be a separate system up there that you clip into.

Mark

 

[thinwater]

The cabin top can be a problem, but along the edge is usually safe. Tight along the sides works on some boats, depending on shroud locations.

Not anywhere I would put my foot. (You never walk on lacings.) Yes, it is under an outhauler, but when on the windward side, that is completely slack and just slides out of the way with you. The jackline ends just forward of the forward beam; The long tether will reach the bow from there. Out of sight, forward of the beam, is a 6' x 6' safety net that protects that area. I can clip short to the pulpit. Why would I be in that area? The bow sprit folds, and it's not that unusual to be up there folding/unfolding the sprit and removing/setting the reacher in big waves. This set-up protects the bow work area. Clip the jackline, walk forward, clip the pulpit with the short tether, and do what needs done. No fussing, no un-clipping and re-clipping, nothing to trip over. Easy peasy.

One is next to a handhold, and from there forward it is off the deck in a non-traffic area. Not underfoot and much better than side-deck. The other is vertical (and also keeps sheets off the mast winches--that is the real purpose). I can lean snug against it when winching in a reef.

It's all about figuring out what works on your boat.