Universal alt bracket\not rehash :-)

[Skipper]

-updated 3/28- Done.

We know the old alt brackets on M25's are prone to failure. However, I cannot find any specific info re where on the bracket they failed.

I've seen pics that Main posted that show the timing case failing(attached), but not the bracket. So I'm wondering how the timing case failed in that picture without the bracket failing. Was it loosely adjusted etc. Or maybe I just can't see the bracket failure in the picture.

So where does the bracket fail? Is it the adjusting arm? The lower bracket itself? The bolts? The equipment to which it's mounted? (-IE the timing case ear) Please no warnings about should the bracket be changed, it's your boat\choice, all that. Aware that they have failed in the past. Just curious how they fail. Mine is the M-18 which I can't find a single documented failure, only one chap who had a crack. Also, I've discovered that the new bracket requires slightly more space to port, and my engine room is spaced such that I would have to modify it :-0 to enable the new bracket upgrade installation. So am looking at options IE: a custom solid steel adjusting bracket, quality bolts, etc if in fact they are the failure points. I just don't know the failure point.

 

[weinie]

It's not the bracket, its the timing cover that breaks. That's why you are f-ed if it does happen.

 

[Stu Jackson]

It's a casting, It fails catastrophically.

Like this:

http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=M-25_Alternator_Mount_Conversion_Kit_"B/M_256891"

Pictures of failed bracket included!

weinie's right - timing gear cover gets slammed, no longer available.

 

[Skipper]

It's a casting, It fails catastrophically. Like this: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=M-25_Alternator_Mount_Conversion_Kit_%22B/M_256891%22 Pictures of failed bracket included! weinie's right - timing gear cover gets slammed, no longer available.

Aha! The pic with the broken parts. That's exactly what I was looking for thank you Stu.
They both broke - the adjusting arm on top and the bracket on the bottom. I'm guessing the adjusting arm went first, causing the repercussions. It seems the flimsiest.

 

[31seahorse]

Hello Skipper, "Bin there, experienced that!" Please do whatever modifications are necessary so that you can install the "new"/"upgraded"/"better" alternator bracket. The change on our M25 was easy enough that I completed that change by myself. Believe me, a diesel mechanic I am not! I had ignored the recommendations of a wise friend and paid the consequences for my hesitation. While I could make the bracket change myself I could not repair the gear case cover myself. Read the information supplied by Stu with great care. The man prints the truth. Broken gear case and broken alternator bracket as shown can both occur. Gear case: big dollars, if you can find one. Respectfully, 31seahorse

 

[31seahorse]

Also, think about vibration and leverage on the bolt through the "ear" on the gear case. Since the gear case is aluminum (I think) it cracked after some years of use.

 

[kloudie1]

Too much heavy, twisty, turnie stuff hanging on too little meat!

 

[Donnybrook]

You can get a ton of info here, along with the differences between the M-25 and M-18.
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=164535&page=2

On my M-18, the alternator does not go out any more than it did with the old bracket. In fact, and as mentioned in the thread, you have to be careful not to let the alternator hit the starter power stud when changing the belt. You should always kill power to the starter when changing a belt.

 

[Stu Jackson]

However, I cannot find any specific info re where on the bracket they failed.

Please no warnings about should the bracket be changed, it's your boat\choice, all that. Aware that they have failed in the past. Just curious how they fail.

Now you know. Since it is a CASTING it can fail literally anywhere.

Please no warnings?

Look, we've been trying to get skippers to understand this since 1991!!!

This is not aimed at you, even though it seems you still haven't changed it yet, but for the bunch of other skippers who haven't yet gotten the message.

*********************************
*********************************

ARGGH:

From another forum just today:

I've read numerous articles regarding the faulty bracket which secures the alternator to the engine. Ours is a 1987 M-25 which has the old bracket. I've since purchased the replacement parts which did not come with any instructions. I found a procedure on-line with photos to follow how to do the changeout. It seems a bit tedious. I'd like some input from some owners here. This seems to be rather important considering the potential damage which can occur. Should I proceed with this or ignore it and hope it doesn't happen to me? Some words of wisdom would be appreciated. We've had our boat for 14 yrs. The current bracket seems fine...SO FAR!

****************************

My reply:


I couldn't help myself ---

Yes, do it. What's your entire engine worth to you?

This includes a link to Maine Sail's excellent article, as well as to one I wrote back in 1999, when I had the bracket replacement ON MY BOAT, as yet uninstalled, and the old bracket broke!

Alignment is critical.

So is getting the correct pivot bolt and arm bolts for your alternator.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7917.0.html

In my case, I did NOT have to remove the entire manifold, plus my studs were short but still long enough to hold the new bracket.

If you don't have to remove the manifold, it's a rather simple task.

I helped a good friend do his on his M25 on his E32. We had to remove the old studs on his, they were too short, but MS's article explains how to do that. URBAN MYTH: many say that you have to take off the manifold if you have to remove the old studs. Not true.

HERE'S ANOTHER REASON TO DO THIS:

I have a good friend with an M25XP. He neglected his raw water pump and it leaked all over his engine. He had to replace his oil pan. He also just learned his timing gear cover is shot, rusted though. Now here's the part that oughta interest you: they don't make these engines anymore. The timing belt cover is no longer available.

They are difficult, if not impossible to find.

So, WHEN, not if?, your alternator bracket fails catastrophically because it is a casting, and it RUINS your timing cover, you will have $7,000 to $12,000 to spend on a new engine.

All because it was too "tedious" to do four hours of work for a $200 replacement bracket.

Why people ask...

But, you and another Ericson owner have figured: "It's been working so far, why bother?"

Yeah, right...

Why ask?

For the past 25 years many, many skippers have been URGING other skippers to DO THIS.

We're not doing it 'cuz we feel better that you DON'T.

C'mon...

Please excuse me for my exuberance about this issue, but we have seen altogether too many skippers who have lost their entire engines because they didn't know about this issue. Now we're "exposed" to one who KNOWS it exists and is asking whether he should do it.

NAHHH, why bother???

************

Quite frankly, it is truly disappointing that folks, when warned, simply refuse to spend a short amount of time to avoid catastrophic failures.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I'm guessing the adjusting arm went first, causing the repercussions.

Who cares?

 

[Skipper]

Now you know. Since it is a CASTING it can fail literally anywhere. Please no warnings? Look, we've been trying to get skippers to understand this since 1991!!! This is not aimed at you, even though it seems you still haven't changed it yet, but for the bunch of other skippers who haven't yet gotten the message. ********************************* ********************************* ARGGH: From another forum just today: I've read numerous articles regarding the faulty bracket which secures the alternator to the engine. Ours is a 1987 M-25 which has the old bracket. I've since purchased the replacement parts which did not come with any instructions. I found a procedure on-line with photos to follow how to do the changeout. It seems a bit tedious. I'd like some input from some owners here. This seems to be rather important considering the potential damage which can occur. Should I proceed with this or ignore it and hope it doesn't happen to me? Some words of wisdom would be appreciated. We've had our boat for 14 yrs. The current bracket seems fine...SO FAR! **************************** My reply: I couldn't help myself --- Yes, do it. What's your entire engine worth to you? This includes a link to Maine Sail's excellent article, as well as to one I wrote back in 1999, when I had the bracket replacement ON MY BOAT, as yet uninstalled, and the old bracket broke! Alignment is critical. So is getting the correct pivot bolt and arm bolts for your alternator. http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7917.0.html In my case, I did NOT have to remove the entire manifold, plus my studs were short but still long enough to hold the new bracket. If you don't have to remove the manifold, it's a rather simple task. I helped a good friend do his on his M25 on his E32. We had to remove the old studs on his, they were too short, but MS's article explains how to do that. URBAN MYTH: many say that you have to take off the manifold if you have to remove the old studs. Not true. HERE'S ANOTHER REASON TO DO THIS: I have a good friend with an M25XP. He neglected his raw water pump and it leaked all over his engine. He had to replace his oil pan. He also just learned his timing gear cover is shot, rusted though. Now here's the part that oughta interest you: they don't make these engines anymore. The timing belt cover is no longer available. They are difficult, if not impossible to find. So, WHEN, not if?, your alternator bracket fails catastrophically because it is a casting, and it RUINS your timing cover, you will have $7,000 to $12,000 to spend on a new engine. All because it was too "tedious" to do four hours of work for a $200 replacement bracket. Why people ask... But, you and another Ericson owner have figured: "It's been working so far, why bother?" Yeah, right... Why ask? For the past 25 years many, many skippers have been URGING other skippers to DO THIS. We're not doing it 'cuz we feel better that you DON'T. C'mon... Please excuse me for my exuberance about this issue, but we have seen altogether too many skippers who have lost their entire engines because they didn't know about this issue. Now we're "exposed" to one who KNOWS it exists and is asking whether he should do it. NAHHH, why bother??? ************ Quite frankly, it is truly disappointing that folks, when warned, simply refuse to spend a short amount of time to avoid catastrophic failures.

You should have just taken the thank you.
You provided what I was looking for. Thank you. Done.

I'm aware of the issue. As I said. You have no idea of my setup or what's required to perform the mod on it. The alt is <1/4 inch from the port wall. The measurements for new appear to exceed the wall. Also, again, there has apparently not been a single failure on an m18, out of 2,500 units. Please don't show the one suspect crack in one guys gear case again.

I'm not going to blindly follow advise regarding a different motor, granted good advise regarding the different motor, when there is virtually no evidence to show that it affects the motor in question, and then cut up my boat's interior.

That said, I still agree that the concept should be paid attention, and am trying to proactively address it in a logical fashion given all the info.
If it's the adjusting arm that typically fails, not always, but typically, then a more robust arm might be useful. Especially given the complete absence of failures with the standard arm on this motor.

Maybe there's less torque than the m25. Maybe the angle is different. Maybe more amps on the larger motor. It doesn't matter; the fact remains that, based on the lack of reported failures, the m-18s don't suffer this issue.

Google Universal M18 bracket failure. Or gear case failure. Nothing.

 

[Skipper]

Who cares?

Because that would mean the adjusting arm may be the week point for the typical failure, even though the entire setup may be week given the loads applied on the m25.

 

[jibes138]

Because that would mean the adjusting arm may be the week point for the typical failure, even though the entire setup may be week given the loads applied on the m25.

i didn't break the bracket but sheared the screw that goes in the front of the coolant tank/exhaust manifold. The new bracket is much more robust. Very easy to install.

 

[Skipper]

i didn't break the bracket but sheared the screw that goes in the front of the coolant tank/exhaust manifold. The new bracket is much more robust. Very easy to install.

Good info thank you sir.
Was that on an m18?

Yep, the orig alt setup has my attention. Am looking at all options right now as I'm replacing the coolant pump anyway so want to do all pending cooling system tasks while I've got it apart and coolant out. ( a new bracket requires rem the manifold and hose)
Yet a revamp including cutting up my beloved interior may not be justified regarding this motor version. If someone shows just one m18 gear case destroyed by the alt bracket I'll shut the heck up and start cutting.

 

[jibes138]

No it was an M25. When the bolt sheared off I drilled it out and tried to use a screw extracter. The screw extractor snapped off in the hole so now I had a real mess. I ended up drilling and tapping a new hole next to the old one, but with the new bracket that screw isn't used so I just put in a set screw to fill the now unused hole. Than exhaust manifold/coolant tank is listed as a $1700.00 part retail. That is such a large percent of a new motor it probably isn't worth replacing.

 

[weinie]

Skipper...
I did the upgrade on my m18 last summer. It was a ***** because of the lack of access. I ended up spilling coolant all over the bilge, had to remove the exhaust (and order a new gasket), had to find a place to drill a larger hole in the alternator, and lost a few days of sailing and about 10 hours of labor. The boat (a catalina 27) lasted almost 30 years with no issue. It "probably" would have lasted a few more. I have seen countless catalina 27s on ebay, craigslist, sailboatlistings, etc with the original bracket and no apparent damage.

So would I do it now knowing how much of a PITA it was to do? Probably not.
And I ended up trading the boat in at the end of the season anyway!

 

[dparilla]

You should have just taken the thank you.
You provided what I was looking for. Thank you. Done.

I'm aware of the issue.... Or gear case failure. Nothing.

The frustration is not with your question. But directed at the myriad owners on this site and others that have not completed several essential repairs (this and the harness immediately come to mind.) I have recently run into an owner who upon my survey telling him to replace the bracket, he balked. His mitigation to his insurance company was to install a beefier adjusting arm, they accepted it, and less than a month later, he called me to find out about a new bracket as well as well as replace his oil filter threaded nipple, and coolant pump sheave and timing cover. All damage done when the alternator let go. I am glad you are taking the proper steps methodically, but hope you can understand the exasperation that sometimes occurs with the umpteenth re-addressal of the issue. Hopefully your question will help others focus on fixing the right items on their engines.

 

[Skipper]

Skipper... I did the upgrade on my m18 last summer. ,,.. I have seen countless catalina 27s on ebay, craigslist, sailboatlistings, etc with the original bracket and no apparent damage. So would I do it now knowing how much of a PITA it was to do? Probably not.

Yep. And all those were m18s on the C27's with the bracket in question.
I think Universal/Westerbeke assigned a blanket warning for all motors with the bracket, but the smaller motors were unaffected. Now I don't KNOW this, but your info and that of others on the net (if it says so on the internet it must be true ;-)) who have stated no such failure has ever occurred, seems to point to a pattern of failure on the more powerful motors only.

 

[Skipper]

The frustration is not with your question. But directed at the myriad owners on this site and others that have not completed several essential repairs (this and the harness immediately come to mind.) I have recently run into an owner who upon my survey telling him to replace the bracket, he balked. His mitigation to his insurance company was to install a beefier adjusting arm, they accepted it, and less than a month later, he called me to find out about a new bracket as well as well as replace his oil filter threaded nipple, and coolant pump sheave and timing cover. All damage done when the alternator let go.

But was it an m18?

By the way I feel your pain, and experience it myself. When I see a jib on a neighbor boat flapping in a 40 knot wind storm, I go to haul it in. When the powerboat next to me is sitting below the waterline, I break into the cabin knee deep in ocean and flip on the bilge pump. When a boat is hitting a pylon I re-tie it. I worry for the boat, not necessarily the owner. It's a deep trait can't explain. Maybe abnormal even. But I too am frustrated when people neglect their boats. And I appreciate others' concern and I thank you for it.

But part of my worry is doing the wrong thing, especially when it comes to modifying my prize from its original design and build, a task I avoid at all costs, unless it is in obvious need.

A preservationist, and hard core so on this boat, the last 29.9 to leave Bristol RI, the only one in existence to have the long list of different cosmetic and functional enhancements included vs previous specimens, plus the copious love, blood and cash invested in her conservation, I'm very careful about what is applied.

 

[Richard19068]

Yep. And all those were m18s on the C27's with the bracket in question.
I think Universal/Westerbeke assigned a blanket warning for all motors with the bracket, but the smaller motors were unaffected. Now I don't KNOW this, but your info and that of others on the net (if it says so on the internet it must be true ;-)) who have stated no such failure has ever occurred, seems to point to a pattern of failure on the more powerful motors only.

It was my M-18 with the crack in the timing case. It was not the bracket arm that was breaking, it was the timing case because of the way the arm is attached to the case. The crack in the case was leaking oil. I'm pretty sure if I hadn't noticed the small crack and changed to the new bracket the case would have eventually let go. No amount of beefing up the existing bracket arm would have helped. I guess I'm just the one unlucky M-18 owner with the problem.