Traveller versus mainsheet?

[Scott T-Bird]

njlarry, you might say that the traveler 'controls' twist, but you can't say that it is a sail control devise that 'affects' twist. There is a reason for the distinction ...

Basically, the mainsheet and/or the vang are the devices that affect twist ... increase twist by loosening the main and/or vang (allowing the boom to rise) or decrease twist by tightening. When the twist is established by the settings of these controls, the traveler can be moved all the way windward or leeward without affecting twist. In that respect, the angle of attack is affected while the twist is 'controlled'. It's controlled in that the angle of attack can be changed without changing twist.

Actually, it is a common practice to move the traveler windward and loosen the mainsail to do 2 things ... allow the boom to rise to increase twist and let the boom swing to leeward to get the desired angle of attack. In this circumstance, if you drop the traveler, the angle of attack changes, but the twist is 'controlled' or unaffected.

 

[Brian S]

Traveller vs. mainsheet

What has never been clear to me is why pulling the traveler to windward would not lessen the downward pull of the mainsheet and therefore increase twist while moving the traveler to leeward would not do the opposite. If so, is the traveler controlling twist??

As pointed out by another poster, the mainsheet and traveller are independent controls, and for close reaches to close hauled points of sail, do not affect each other.

If you have a mainsheet and traveller, when you're close hauled, and you pull on a lot of mainsheet, it will pull the boom down, and tighten the leech, and this will reduce twist at the top of the sail. As the boom end and the mainsheet attachment point to the traveller are closer together (through the arc of the boom), the primary component of force of the mainsheet is to pull the boom DOWN.

But at the same time this is happening, the boom will still angle out, and the mainsheet will be at an angle. It still won't be straight up and down from mainsheet boom attachment point to mainsheet traveller attachment point, because there is a vector of force blowing the sail sideways. And because the mainsheet isn't rigid. So it essentially blows off of the 90º of the mainsheet to horizontal reference ON THE BOAT not the water (can't reference the water as horizontal because of boat heeling. The traveller track itself is the horizontal reference point.) Maybe the mainsheet makes a 95-100º angle to horizontal. Consequently, if the traveller is centered, the boom is also able to blow off the centerline of the boat, due to the mainsheet angling sideways. (Ok, for boats like Hobie 16s that are sailed mainsheet tight block to block, this doesn't apply. But on your big monohull boat, is your traveller as high as the boom, or boom as low as the traveller? I doubt it. No block to block there...)

So, you can use the traveller to accommodate for this angle offset, and pull the traveller to windward, thus allowing the boom to be centered along the boat centerline. Because the mainsheet is controlling downwards pressure on the leech, it is setting the amount of twist, and because you have NOT touched the mainsheet adjustment while moving the traveller, you have not affected twist. Though you have changed the angle of attack using the traveller.

This is why, for close hauled, anyway, the mainsheet controls the leech tension and thus the amount of twist, and the traveller controls the angle of attack.

If you are further from the wind than, say, a close reach, yes, both the mainsheet and the traveller can affect the angle of attack. This is because as you let the mainsheet out, and the boom arc swings further away from the traveller (greater mainsheet angle to horizontal) there is less of a component of force pulling the boom down, and more of a component of force pulling the end of the boom through its arc. Of course, in situations like a beam or broad reach, due to limited traveller "throw" if you will, it won't affect angle of attack AS MUCH as letting out the mainsheet will.

Further to this, one could make the argument that the boom swings in an arc (and the mainsheet attachment point to the boom swings in an arc) but the traveller is a straight piece of track, and the mainsheet attachment point to the traveller does not swing an arc. Thus, the more you move the traveller off of centerline, it actually diverges aftwards of the attachment point of mainsheet to boom, and thus applies more tension to the mainsheet. Ok, yes, this would be true. Some very high performance racing boats do indeed use a curved traveller track to mimic the arc of the boom. But honestly, for most boats, especially cruising boats or cruiser/racers, sail trim just doesn't need to be that precise, and straight travelers are more than adequate to assist in proper twist adjustment and angle of attack adjustment. Seriously, most people are using double braid polyester as a mainsheet, and the amount of stretch in polyester makes this hairsplitting a moot point.

Hope this helps,
Brian

What has never been clear to me is why pulling the traveler to windward would not lessen the downward pull of the mainsheet and therefore increase twist while moving the traveler to leeward would not do the opposite. If so, is the traveler controlling twist??

 

[Freedom77]

Yeah, what Brian S said. I installed a traveler on Freedom and got immediate performance results. As in, Kickin' butt over same boats without it. Pointed better, etc. The wishbone setup on Ventures only pull the boom down and doesn't allow for windward adjustments. Sorry Zeehag but not redundant. ALSO, Zeehag, so sorry about your motor blowing up. Hope you're not up the creek.

 

[25yearslater]

Distilling down what I am reading I am of the opinion that the traveller is a very useful tool in our sailing toolbox. Depending on the level of performance one desires dictates the inclusion of this in the box. Necessary no, desirable yes. Some use an adjustable wrench and some prefer a box wrench and some even a tube wrench. Each of these wrenches will serve the purpose but some will do so better for a specific application.
Economics and performance ultimately dictate whether to include the traveller or not.

 

[Maine Sail]

Distilling down what I am reading I am of the opinion that the traveller is a very useful tool in our sailing toolbox.

The traveler is very, very useful. The problem is many sailors simply don't know what it is for and/or how to use it effectively. When racing the traveler is played almost constantly often more so than the vang or main sheet. I drool over the travelers on my customers J Boats....... My traveler is great, end boom, but not as good as those....:cry:

In reference to JohnnyQ's picture. When raising the main:

* Release the vang
* Release the main sheet
* Ease the out haul

NOW you are ready to raise the main. My guess, even with a blown out sail, you'll lose a lot of that lower luff baggage. It appears you raised the main & tightened the halyard with a tight vang, sheet and outhaul.... What ever you don't get out with this technique you can flatten with the Cunningham..

 

[JonnyQuest]

Thanks for the photo analysis Maine. This thread has been great at supplementing my readings on sail trim. Hoping the weather cooperates with my schedule some time soon to get out and practice.

Good luck to the rest of the pupils here.

 

[Joe]

Hi Joe
This may become a twofold learning experience for me. Once I've got the basics of sail trim figured out, I'd like to start learning how to do sail and canvas projects for myself. My wife Knows how to sew, so I just need to pick her brain a bit. She also has a heavy-duty sewing machine capable of the job.

It would be pretty cool if you and your wife could pick up a skill like that. Go on sailrite.com and research what special tools and supplies one needs to do sail cloth work. A little snooping around for "how to recut a sail" videos or books could benefit both of you.

The sail is a 3 dimensional object just like a garment.... with no straight line edges. Learning the fundamentals of sail construction will not only save you some money and prolong the life of those precious items........ it will also give you tremendous insight on adjusting them out on the water.

That said........ I still think it would be worthwhile to have a sailmaker look at your main and give you a quick appraisal of its condition and an estimate to make any corrections.

 

[JonnyQuest]

It would be pretty cool if you and your wife could pick up a skill like that. Go on sailrite.com and research what special tools and supplies one needs to do sail cloth work. A little snooping around for "how to recut a sail" videos or books could benefit both of you.

The sail is a 3 dimensional object just like a garment.... with no straight line edges. Learning the fundamentals of sail construction will not only save you some money and prolong the life of those precious items........ it will also give you tremendous insight on adjusting them out on the water.

That said........ I still think it would be worthwhile to have a sailmaker look at your main and give you a quick appraisal of its condition and an estimate to make any corrections.

It has been advised to have a sailmaker come to the boat and assess the sail rigged on the boat. However There are none in my area. I could take the sail off and bring it to a sail shop in New Orleans however If a proper session can be done with regards to a recut without the sail being rigged on the boat. Would that work?

 

[Don Guillette]

Honestly, your best option is to take the sail to a sailmaker for an evaluation. I could maybe repair my cars transmision but I've never done it before and don't know where to start. Same with your sail -- you don't know what's wrong with it. My sail was in similiar baggy condition to yours. I decided I needed a new sail and my wife and I took the sail to a Torrance sail maker. I thought he'd confirm what I felt I already knew. Turned out he went to school with my wife and after they had "old home week" he said he could do a "nip and tuck", fix some worn points, wash the sail etc. I think it cost about $200 and the sail looked great when I got it back. I got about 5 more years out of it.

 

[JonnyQuest]

Honestly, your best option is to take the sail to a sailmaker for an evaluation. I could maybe repair my cars transmision but I've never done it before and don't know where to start. Same with your sail -- you don't know what's wrong with it. My sail was in similiar baggy condition to yours. I decided I needed a new sail and my wife and I took the sail to a Torrance sail maker. I thought he'd confirm what I felt I already knew. Turned out he went to school with my wife and after they had "old home week" he said he could do a "nip and tuck", fix some worn points, wash the sail etc. I think it cost about $200 and the sail looked great when I got it back. I got about 5 more years out of it.

Good. I'll take it in to New Orleans and see what they say.

 

[Don Guillette]

If you want a new sail -- don't take your wife with you!! Had she not known the sail maker personally I'd have purchased a new sail from him and told her the sailmaker said my present sail was junk and could not be repaired.

How far is Gulfport from New Orleans? New Orleans is one of my favorite cities -- I love the Hurricane drinks. One time we both had one and they tasted so good we decided to split another one. Everything was fine until we tried to get up to walk out of the bar!! The next stop was to be a Cajun music/dance bar, which we never got to -- dance, we could hardly walk!!

 

[JonnyQuest]

New Orleans about 75 minutes from Gulfport. Not too bad but we really don't get in that much. When the crowds aren't heavy the French Quarter can be exquisite. Great food, whopper drinks, ton of history. The old homes and traditional food and beverages are great. Ditto for visiting the plantations up the River Road from NOLA.

Oops, forgot about the sail talk Don, you got me going there. IF a new sail is on the horizon then I may use this one as our test case for learning useful skills with. I have spoken with Sailrite once and they seem to be a wealth of information as Joe suggested. I'll compare comments from a NOLA sail loft and Sailrite before deciding which way to go.

And I'll have a Hurricane for you while I'm there!

 

[25yearslater]

Don't forget about SBO if looking for a new one. If I wasn't so obsessed with original I would have gone with them for my new main. The delivery there is faster than most any other place. If you do get a recut and want to borrow my spare used main let me know. I decided not to bother with the mini main so I have one you could use.

 

[JonnyQuest]

Don't forget about SBO if looking for a new one. If I wasn't so obsessed with original I would have gone with them for my new main. The delivery there is faster than most any other place. If you do get a recut and want to borrow my spare used main let me know. I decided not to bother with the mini main so I have one you could use.

Thanks Joe, I'll let you know. "Mini Main"--Did you opt for a bigger main then?

 

[25yearslater]

No, I have the standard Neil Pryde main. I was considering chopping this one down with the way the wind has howled this year but Don's book helped with twisting off to depower especially up high. So I have the one that came with YOT sitting in the basement. Tried to sell it but no takers. Figure I could loan it out for others to use while theirs is blown out or in your case recut to keep folks sailing.

 

[Joe]

It has been advised to have a sailmaker come to the boat and assess the sail rigged on the boat. However There are none in my area. I could take the sail off and bring it to a sail shop in New Orleans however If a proper session can be done with regards to a recut without the sail being rigged on the boat. Would that work?

Yes.... if he won't come the boat. Call the loft for an appointment and they'll tell you what pictures would help the evaluation.

 

[fruivita]

Interesting thread and it has been very informative for this new sailor. One question about reefing as regards sail trim and shape: although I have 2 reef lines on the leech, what keeps the luff from riding and filling in heavy weather if I've reefed?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

fruivita, the tack has to be fastened down. There are a few ways it can be done ...

Many boats have a rams horn at the gooseneck (one on each side). You simply hook the reefing cringle to the horn and tighten the halyard.

If you don't have a rams horn, you need to use a single line reefing system or a double line reefing system. Single line reefing is more convenient but possibly more difficult to get the sail reefed properly because of the friction that develops when a single line is used to snug down both the clew and the tack.

Double line reefing involves a separate line for the clew and the tack. More effective but less convenient.

You can look up the diagrams for these two methods. Personally, I prefer the rams horn for the tack. Simple, solid, doesn't require a line. The only disadvantage is the need to go to the mast to attach the tack.

 

[michellepinto]

A traveller is the block fixed on your boat. It mainly controls the position of your boom when you sail a beat. On downwind, the position of your traveller does not affect the position of your boom much.

You main sheet entirely controls the position of the boom. Main sheet and traveller are both different.

 

[JonnyQuest]

fruivita, the tack has to be fastened down. There are a few ways it can be done ...

Many boats have a rams horn at the gooseneck (one on each side). You simply hook the reefing cringle to the horn and tighten the halyard.

If you don't have a rams horn, you need to use a single line reefing system or a double line reefing...
Personally, I prefer the rams horn for the tack. Simple, solid, doesn't require a line.

Hi Scott
Good info for me too. Can you clarify one point about using the rams horn, which I have. I also have rigged a reefing line for the clew cringle to hold it down. Is the aft reefing line somehow not necessary, as I have simply assumed it is necessary to match the reefing point the rams horn sets at the tack?
Thanks, Jonny.