Traveller versus mainsheet?

Don Guillette · Jul 22, 2013

In light winds, you want the sail as flat as possible or almost so. In other words, you have to fiddle with it to get the most optimum position. You also have to use your outhaul because you don't want much belly in the sail because very light wind doesn't have the power to get around the sail.

8 knots of wind is not light winds but I'll bet your boom vang is so loose that you're spilling wind off the top 1/3 of the sail. Like I said, next time you go to the boat just hoist the mainsail at the dock and don't touch the boom vang. Look up the sail and see if the top is open. Here's what you're looking for. Form your right hand in a salute and then turn your fingers only to the right. See how the top opens!! Now turn your finger back to the left, as if you were cranking on your boom vang, and see how it closes thus causing the sail to power up from top to bottom.

On the "set it and forget it" with the boom vang or the outhaul and jib fairleads or any of your controls, your setting is right for one point of sail and wind condition and wrong for all others.

I know there are a lot of sail trim controls but think of them as "levers" you have to push or pull to fine tune and tweak your sails (engine). Once you get the hang of it, it becomes fun. Now it's a chore

25yearslater · Jul 22, 2013

Hey Jonny. My sails are as follows: Main - Neil Pryde, 100% - Neil Pryde, 140% - SBO/Doyle, Asym - SBO/Doyle. Great prices on the Doyles from right here at SBO. (Shameless plug) Didn't take her out with old sails as YOT was in a condition I didn't feel was seaworthy so I never tried the old sails. I also dumped the roly furly in favor of hank on jibs. I like the cloth weight options this way. I also over trim the mainsheet and set the vang then ease the mainsheet when close or beam reaching as the mainsheet will draw the twist out of the sail when hauled in tight. I sacrifice the few degrees of pointing ability when I twist off the top of the main to depower it by easing the vang. Works pretty good overall. I'm seeing between 4 and 6+ knots in the wind conditions you described earlier. If I were ever to race seriously I would definately add the traveller but why do it now since I'm just chasing down other boats for fun.

sea_casper · Jul 22, 2013

zeehag said:
i sailed for most of my formative years without a traveller. travellers are redundant.

I too sailed in my formative years, without a traveler, also without a jib, a keel, and an engine, I guess they are also redundant

Headplant · Jul 23, 2013

Don Guillette said:
In light winds, you want the sail as flat as possible or almost so. In other words, you have to fiddle with it to get the most optimum position. You also have to use your outhaul because you don't want much belly in the sail because very light wind doesn't have the power to get around the sail.

8 knots of wind is not light winds but I'll bet your boom vang is so loose that you're spilling wind off the top 1/3 of the sail. Like I said, next time you go to the boat just hoist the mainsail at the dock and don't touch the boom vang. Look up the sail and see if the top is open. Here's what you're looking for. Form your right hand in a salute and then turn your fingers only to the right. See how the top opens!! Now turn your finger back to the left, as if you were cranking on your boom vang, and see how it closes thus causing the sail to power up from top to bottom.

On the "set it and forget it" with the boom vang or the outhaul and jib fairleads or any of your controls, your setting is right for one point of sail and wind condition and wrong for all others.

I know there are a lot of sail trim controls but think of them as "levers" you have to push or pull to fine tune and tweak your sails (engine). Once you get the hang of it, it becomes fun. Now it's a chore

Actually, no, in light airs you need some shape to the sail and you also need to promote twist, to help keep the airflow attached to the mainsail. Light air means you have laminar airflow (in the fluid dynamics sense), and the wind speed difference between sea surface and top of mast is accentuated, which means you need more twist. As the wind speed increases to moderate you can reduce twist and power up the sail by using the mainsheet.

It's generally easier to use mainsheet rather than vang to control twist when on the wind and trying to point. In really light air your boom is likely heavy and making the leech too tight so you may need to use topping lift (if you have it) to help achieve twist in the main. Vang makes no difference here (unless using a solid vang), you don't need it in light airs going upwind, specially if you need to use topping lift. As others said earlier, vang is mainly used for off the wind control of twist. When you want minimum twist in medium to heavy airs, the mainsheet gives you the best mechanical advantage for reducing twist.

Also, when the wind is stronger and gusty you may not have enough traveller to handle the mainsail trim by traveller alone, so may also need to use the mainsheet to twist up and depower in gusts.

One can find lots of info on mainsail trim .... e.g this link from Quantum sails: http://www.quantumsails.com/get_file.aspx?file=05080d68-b104-49e5-9f57-ee8405d07509

Also in light airs you may need to point at slightly wider angles to the wind to increase apparent wind speed and produce more power. It depends upon the conditions.

So the Beneteau First series boats have a wide cockpit traveller because it gives you better/easier control over mainsail settings, for both twist using mainsheet and angle of attack using traveller. But it is less convenient for cruising in comfort.

frimi_captain · Jul 23, 2013

Mainsheet and traveller picture

JonnyQuest said:
The mainsheet and a traveller both control the amount of distance the boom is allowed to swing away from the centerline. I read about this I Don's sail trim guide but still can't grasp any difference between a traveller and the mainsheet.

Can y'all help me grasp the difference? I don't have a traveller, so what am I missing when trimming my mainsail?

I like this picture

http://www.layline.com/One-Design/images/OD-Harken-Images/Farr-30-Deck-Layout.gif

LuzSD · Jul 23, 2013

Love a good traveler

Sailboats are not at all the same, so what is an essential tool on one boat is not for another. Because one has not used a traveler routinely does not diminish its importance to another. We use the tools that are available and we become advocates of those we depend on and learn to use well. I personally use the traveler all the time, as I adjust the mainsheet and would dearly miss a traveler on any boat I sail on.

shemandr · Jul 23, 2013

There are a lot of dingy's without travelers which sail very well and are as adjustable as any keelboat rig with a traveler. My Bandit 15 was one. Maybe they would be even better with one but there is some virtue in simplicity. On two of my three keelboats I had a traveler and employed it for all sailing. On my Mark 25 the traveller was useless or worse. I removed its rigging and went with the mainsheet alone. Different strokes for different boats. In sailing, you're allowed to look at the sail controls and say "This isn't working" and change it.

Scott T-Bird · Jul 24, 2013

A couple of things come to mind ... that cringle nearest the tack is for a Cunningham. You could add this sail control devise to take out the looseness at the lower third of the sail that can be seen at the luff. Also, it looks like the tack is too far removed from the mast. Isn't there a pin setting closer to the mast at the gooseneck to get the tack in line with the mast track? You are losing the ability to raise the sail properly because of the obvious friction that the lowest slug has in the mast track.

Get rid of the wire halyard. If your hoist is limited because the wire interferes with the winch, it's also an obvious problem in need of an obvious solution. Why does anybody even use wire anymore? If you have a narrow sheave, use a high strength, low stretch line but I would think that a 3/8" line would be perfectly appropriate on your boat if you don't want to go hi-tech.

Don Guillette · Jul 24, 2013

JonnyQuest: Here's a quick fix. Attach a short piece of rope with a cliip or whatever to the lowest cringle and just tie it to the boom to see if there's any improvement with the scollops.

One other thing, and it's just my personal preference -- I like my telltales to extend past the end of the sail. To me it's especially important with the top one as I want it to be able to see if it's curling backwards (which I don't want).

What is the pupose of the line, which looks very tight, coming up from what looks like the end of the boom to the cringle?

Scott T-Bird · Jul 24, 2013

That's his reefing line, but it does look a little too tight. Yes, he could add tells at the ends of the battens. It doesn't hurt to leave the existing ones in place.

Scott T-Bird · Jul 24, 2013

I think you are correct in noticing that there is a shelf built into your main. I think that if you want to convert your sail into a loose-footed main, then you might have to have that material cut out to get the sail shape to look right. But I don't think it would really be worthwhile.

Based on your photo, it appears that the issues you are having are based on the inability to stretch out your luff adequately. If you want a loose-footed mainsail, I would say to simply wait until you want to replace it. When I replaced my mainsail and had it made with a loose foot, I did notice the improvement in shaping the draft depth with the outhaul.

My two favorite tools for shaping the sail are the mainsheet and the outhaul. When heading upwind, I tend to ignore the vang and position the mainsheet and traveler in conjunction to get the desired twist and angle of attack. I leave the vang untensioned upwind and only use it as an adjustment when the traveler is all the way down.

I don't bother with a Cunningham, but I do use the winch to get the luff as tensioned as I can comfortably muster. I don't seem to have any issues with achieving a flat entry for the entire luff, which is basically what I want for sailing in flat water all of the time. I don't spend any time thinking about or worrying about draft position, other than what can be achieved with a fully tensioned halyard and by adjusting the outhaul (basically to affect draft depth). I'm not sure if there is a reason for me to be concerned about draft position, given that we never sail with a swell going. However, the washing machine effect of powerboats criss-crossing all over the place does provide the need for a power setting.

njlarry · Jul 24, 2013

What has never been clear to me is why pulling the traveler to windward would not lessen the downward pull of the mainsheet and therefore increase twist while moving the traveler to leeward would not do the opposite. If so, is the traveler controlling twist??

Stu Jackson · Jul 24, 2013

The traveler controls the angle of attack, the mainsheet controls the twist and angle of attack. Think of it this way: if you move the traveler without touching the mainsheet, it does NOT change the twist, 'cuz the boom height has not changed at all. It's Don's repeated analogy to a screen door.

Joe · Jul 25, 2013

Once a sail stretches past a certain point, the only fix is to take it to a sailmaker for a re cut. A shelf foot will be easy to determine.... it is a separate piece of fabric, often lighter in weight, that is designed to disappear or fold into the foot of the sail. If your sail is simply baggy at the bottom..... it won't transform when you tighten the outhaul.

The outhaul and mast bending are the controls for removing the fullness in the lower and middle parts of the sail. If your outhaul is working correctly and you are able to bend the mast, but you still can't reduce the draft depth.... then it's time for a re cut. Twist, draft position, traveller location, etc.... won't correct the problem.

A recut is not that expensive.

Traveller versus mainsheet?

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