Traveler car/track as tether?

[dLj]

Your calculations are not incorporating the fact your body can also be leaning - the space does not get smaller, it remains the same, it's simply the angle w.r.t. the horizontal that changes. So with handholds on a cabin top in that 1 foot space you are talking about, you can use both hands, one on the cabin top and one on the lifelines.

I guess so well known: I've never heard of it, have never seen it mentioned on any references I can put my finger on, and no one on my boat goes up the leeward side when the conditions are bad. "This is a well-known issue and it is one of the main reasons that contributes to crews being forced to move forward along the leeward side of the boat and getting washed off their feet with a broach."

My stanchions are all custom make. They are also very strong. They attach at the base in a L (upside down) - There is a plate that bolts through the deck, and a horizontal tube with plate that bolts horizontally through my toe rails at approximately 90 degrees from the base attachment. My toe rail might almost be called short bulwark as they are 4 or so inches high and about 3 inches thick.

The longer the stanchion is does not make it weaker. It makes the forces on it greater as it provides a longer lever arm. Therefore, to support the forces, you need to use stronger base material. Stronger material can be achieved two ways, larger diameter and thicker wall.

The stern pulpit problem you mention was due to the fact the stern pulpit was made from very thin walled material and structurally garbage.

Sorry, but taller does very much help. There has been plenty of documentation to that effect if one cares to actually look it up. The reference given above by Dave is a commercial standard based on safety - not on the racing requirements that are really a compromise between safety and racing desires - two competing interests. 30 inches is too low from a safety perspective. And the 24 inches allowed by off-shore racing is simply ridiculous...

As far as going under or through the lifelines, I covered that above with putting knotted netting from the top of the lifeline to the toe rail.

I'm well versed in the videos mentioned. Of course lifelines aren't going to keep you on in all cases. It's just one of several aspects of preparing a boat for off-shore sailing - and one not so often talked about. Sorry, but I've been in enough off-shore snotty weather to be really happy to have higher lifelines than 30 inches...

This whole conversation is directed to an individual who is planning on sailing from the North Pacific to the South Pacific and down to the tip of South America. Lots of ocean and potential serious weather. Didn't hear a word of being in a race...

dj

 

[jssailem]

(like a catapult broach)

Then there are some events that it is difficult to plan for.

 

[BAD ORCA]

Toe rails have saved me more times than I can count. Is there such a think as too high of lifelines so long as it doesn't interfere with anything?

Yeah mine as well. I went overboard at the dock first day i bought my boat while pushing off. Dont laugh it was a costly fall. Brand new Samsung Galaxy was in my pocket. Caught myself with one hand dangling from the toe rail. Managed to pull myself aboard by pulling myself up and hooking a foot over the rail. Mine are nice beefy teak rails that stick up about three inches from deck. Now im confident I could do the same if I fell over tethered.

 

[BAD ORCA]

Consider a 1-foot wide walkway, just as an example, and a relatively modest 20 degree heeling angle.

View attachment 231332

At that angle, a 24" lifeline leaves you with only 3" of walkway. A 36" lifeline pushes you over an inch leeward of any existing walkway. At 30 degrees of heeling, even a 22" lifeline would completely eliminate this 12" walkway. So, again, you need to do the math for your boat and your tolerances. Taller is not necessarily better.

This is a well-known issue and it is one of the main reasons that contributes to crews being forced to move forward along the leeward side of the boat and getting washed off their feet with a broach.

I'm not even sure you can buy stanchions longer than about 30". One would need to have them custom built.

The other consideration is that the longer the stanchion, the weaker it is. (More accurately, more torque is applied to the base as a result of leverage from force applied at the top of the stanchion.) In other words, taller stanchions break off easier, all else being equal. That is a problem when lifelines/stanchions, in general, are not really up to the task of keeping you on the boat (at any height).

A tangent here: I recall reading a study on this a while back. They surprisingly identifed the stern pulpit as the weakest link in the majority of cases when loads exceeded the capabilities of the overall lifeline system. That makes some sense, when you think about it, but it is surprising.

There are a few points that matter here, I think.

First, taller doesn't really help, but stronger does. It doesn't matter how tall your system is if it does not resist the forces it needs to. People (myself included) put way too much trust in their lifelines. Every effort should be taken to prevent crew from ever coming into "unscheduled contact" with the lifelines (so ... tethers, jacklines, handholds, careful boat handling, etc.) Also, you are just as likely to get flushed under the top lifeline as you are to go over it. So, it is wise to do what you can to focus on that.

I recommend people go watch videos of people going overboard or nearly so. You will see that, with very few exceptions, the person goes over in such a way that no lifeline of any height would matter (like a catapult broach), or they go over very low to the gunwale - not over the lifeline, but through or under it.

Interesting points. I have always considered that my lifelines are not a safety device. I always assume they will break. I never really liked the thought of going over and my tether sawing against the wire or just being forced under very heavy loads to pull against that thin wire, although I have never personally read of an account of a lifeline wire severing a tether.

 

[Hayden Watson]

It's interesting how we get so wrapped up with tether systems and don't talk as much about setting up the boat to reduce the possibility of going overboard simply by design.

If you make your boat very hard to fall off of, that also makes life better. Things like toe rails, correct stanchion height, solid rails or larger diameter lifelines, those kinds of things. There is a lot that can be done to keep people on board in addition to tethers...

dj

I aggree. This is why I installed a simple and robust single line reefing system on my boat. As long as I am not using my spinnaker, I do not need to leave the relative safety of the cockpit except to hoist and drop the sail. I can put in either the 1st or 2nd reef in under a minute form the cockpit.

I also run jacklines with I am solo or sailing at night but do not like them on the rail. I have considered running a centerline jack from bow to turtle, but it is not strong enough for the anchor. Instead, I run the jacklines from the forward edge of the cockpit to the bow but run them inside of the shrouds. This makes all forward travel go over the cabin top rather than alone the deck edge outside of the shrouds. It also holds the jacklines about 18" inboard from the edge.

 

[Foswick]

[...] I've been in enough off-shore snotty weather to be really happy to have higher lifelines than 30 inches...

OK, fine. That gets back to my original advice - know your boat and your sailing.

My only argument against what you were saying was the blanket assertion that taller is always better. It is not. It depends on the boat and the conditions she is sailed in. A little bit taller can be a little bit better (in some edge cases), but what I am disagreeing with is that the idea that there is no such thing as too tall. There are a lot of more important considerations to deck safety than height of the lifelines and, in certain geometries, increased height becomes a hindrance to crew movement.

I looked at a diagram of your boat and can understand why you don't see this as an issue. Your cabin is really short (fore to aft) and the deck walkway is plenty wide for that short stretch. If the lifelines interfered with movement, it would only be for a very short stretch that you could almost duck under as you passed by the cabin. That is not the case on many boats.

I understand that it feels better and more secure, and that's not a bad thing. There has just never been a case that I am aware of where crew went overboard and another 6" of lifeline height would have prevented it. Of course, it is theoretically possible, just not the best place to focus when talking about deck safety. I am not saying that your setup is wrong. I am saying that one needs to make decisions appropriate to the geometry of their boat and the conditions they sail in.

 

[Hayden Watson]

I rather like Elon Musk's mantra. "The best part is no part". In that vein, I believe that the best way to not fall off the side decks or bow is not to go up there, especially when the defecation hits the rotary oscillator. With a well-functioning roller furler and single line reefing, I do not need to leave the cockpit and if I fall out of the cockpit, I have much bigger issues that no jackline will help.