Toilet Replacement

[JimLor]

I'm back! The toilet on our new to us Pearson 28 (1986) is a Groco HF (upgraded I belive from an HC). While it doesn't look bad and seems to work ok, I wouldn't mind replacing it with a new model if it works out to be as easy as removing a few bolts and hoses and reconnecting.

If I recall correctly, there are 4 x screws/bolts connecting the toilet to the deck. They are on the "pipe" that runs from the pump mechanism to the base of the bowl. Looks to be an easy unscrew, remove, and replace. However, knowing that when something looks easy it is generally the prelude to an ambush, I'd like to know if in fact it is that easy.

I did not notice a way to get underneath the deck to attach a nut - is this generally done when the boat is built and the "nut" is permanent, or is removing and replacing these 4 x bolts/nuts something much more involved than it initially appears?

As always, I appreciate any comments, suggestions, and advice those who have gone before might offer.

Jim

 

[JimLor]

Answered my own questions but have just one more...

Had some time waiting for a meeting and did more research (yes, should have done this in the first place).

To answer my own questions, Appears that all toilets are secured with lag bolts - so I assume boats are built with a wooden base under the crapper section.

Looks to be that the Raritan PHII is a good toilet and I'd like to replace my Groco HF with the Raritan. I looked at both of the spec sheets and here is my remaining question:

Looks like the Groco and Raritan are close enough in width and height -- however the Raritan is 2.66 inches deeper than the Groco.

Has anyone installed the Raritan into a Pearson 28-2 and did/do you find the extra 2.7 inches a problem? Not a large head on this boat and losing those couple of inches might be worth thinking about.
Thanks.

 

[gundaddy]

Jim,

I'm contemplating the same thing. The toilet worked during sea trials, only to fail once I got my "new" acquisition home. Didn't see any obvious markings on the toilet, but found some product literature that came with the boat that indicates I probably have a 23 year old Groco.

I'm glad to hear that there is most likely some solid substrate to lag screw into. Was wondering how that worked. Can I ask what made you pick one brand over the other? Did you find that the hole pattern for the lag screws is common?

Pete

 

[JimLor]

Pete - same on the literature that came with the boat. It had a sheet for a Groco HE and one for a Groco HF - I assume the "E" was updated to an "F." We bought the boat on the hardstands and it's still there so the only experience we have is in winterizing the head - and it seems to function ok. Frankly I would just as soon replace with new and not worry about the last time it was serviced, lubricated, etc.

I searched on all forums for head/toilet posts and spent about an hour going thru them. Peggy Hall - seems to be the "expert" on heads/toilets and her posts/replies are very informative. I think I read on one of her posts that all toilets are secured via lag bolts. From that I "assume" that the deck under the toilet is in fact fiberglass on top of a wooden base. Assuming that assumption proves to be correct (no reason to believe it isn't) than the bolt pattern is not a determining factor in which toilet to get. I was initially going to replace mine with a new Groco HF so I could use the same holes. If not, it just a matter of drilling 4 x new holes and securing with SS lag bolts.

On the toilets, here's what I surmised after reading quite a few posts: Jabsco are inexpensive, everywhere, and work well for a couple of years. Groco - actually pretty good crappers and last a few more years. Peggy posted that the Raritan PHII is among, if not, the hightest rated crapper years in a row. So, with my new found expertise (based on just a little study) I figured I go for the Raritan.

It is a different bolt pattern on the base, but assuming the deck is wood it doesn't really matter. What does matter is that it is 2.7 inches deeper. I'm not sure what space is available on the 31 Pearson, but on the 28 the head is compact to say the least and unless I can move the base back aft those 2.7" (or close to it) it might make the larger toilet not the best option. If that is the case, I'll probably just replace the old Groco HF with a new Groco HF.

I'm hoping someone who has installed a Raritan on a 28 will weigh in and give us their actual experience and I'll go from there.

 

[gundaddy]

Jim,
Was on the boat today with Groco and Raritan dimensions in hand, looking at my current toilet. Not sure which way I'll go just now...working on other stuff. You may not have to find an extra 2.7", but maybe half that if the extra depth is evenly split. The Groco spec sheet has more detailed drawings of the critical dimensions than the Raritan spec sheet I found, so it's hard to tell. Let me know how it goes.
Pete

 

[Wanderer138]

I'm no head expert but here are a few general comments based on my experience reconfiguring the interior of my Wanderer:

Pull one of the mounting bolts, preferably one at the back of the compartment (farther outboard) close to the hull and see what it looks like. The others should be the same. If it's a lag screw, replacing the head should be pretty easy. If you have bolts with nuts and can get under the deck then you should be OK. Since the hull curves up to the deck as you go farther back (outboard) in the compartment, access may be available from the front.

The deck in the head compartment is usually screwed to stringers in the hull, so you may be able to remove it in one piece. It shouldn't be very big. You can also remove a section of deck with a sawzall or use a hole saw to cut an access port. When you're done mounting the new head, screw a couple of wood supports under the deck on either side of the opening, drop the cut section back in and screw it down. If you have under-seat lockers in the cabin that are accessible from above you'll see how its done.

In the absolute worst case, you could just use lag bolts for the new head, but check the length carefully. The deck may be very close to the inside of the hull or possibly even resting on it, especially at the back of the compartment. Even if you re-use the same lag bolts, make sure the mounting flange of the new head is at least as thick as the old one. Otherwise the bolts may stick out farther below the deck than before and possibly dig into the hull. Same is true if the back mounting holes for the new head are farther outboard than the old one. Don't ask me how I know this....

 

[JimLor]

Wanderer - great post, thanks for the information. We are headed to the boat tomorrow and I'll take a look.
As I'm thinking about it, there is a panel behind the head that goes thru to the lazzerete so you can stick your arm thru and turn on/off the hot water heater switch (for shore power). The deck the toilet sits on is above the lowest level of the laz so it probably won't be a problem with drilling into the hull - but I will check it out very thoroughly believe me!
While I'm not averse to powering up the sawzall - I'll replace the old Groco with a like new Groco and use the same holes/bolts! I can't tell you how many times a 10 minute job has turned into an all day affair for me because I wasn't aware of all aspects of what I was trying to do. That's why I ask so many questions on this forum - I'd rather learn from other's experiences rather than from my mistakes.

Thanks for your comments/suggestions, I will take them to heart.

Jim

 

[JimLor]

I have decided to skip the drama and replace the toilet with a like Groco HF. Should be the easiest solution

 

[dparilla]

The phii should fit with no drama. Last install I did required 2 new holes at the front of the toilet. Mounted without any issue, and the toilet is a much better quality than the groco.

 

[shorty]

I put a PHII in my 85 P-34 in 2005 when I bought her. Replaced an old Groco like yours. Very happy w/PHII. Easy to service & maintain.

 

[JimLor]

Dan, Shorty - thanks for the replies, I appreciate the comments. I looked at some pictures of the P-34 and it looks like my head (28) is a bit tighter. The more I think about it the less I like the idea of that handle sticking into the "standing room only" part of the head - even if only a little bit. I did run into a small snag when I ordered the HF - they no longer make it with a straight discharge outlet! I'm going to check, but I'm pretty sure I can take the bracket and pipe from the old Groco and put it on the new. Maybe it's just me, but I can't fathom that taking an immediate 90 degree turn is good design when flushing skinless Brown Trout! Besides, in my boat there's no reason for a turn, the discharge hose runs straight from the toilet to the holding tank.

 

[JimLor]

So, replaced the Groco HF with a Groco HF this weekend! The original was, according to the paperwork left behind, an HE upgraded to an HF - don't know when. Removing the toilet was easy - yeah, replacing wasn't bad, but not plug and play. First, I would suggest that if you don't know when your "joker" valve was replaced, check it. When I removed the discharge flange from the toilet (contains the joker valve and connects to the discharge hose) I found the joker valve had two protrusions - one from the top and one from the bottom. I never saw a joker valve before and thought perhaps this was intended to break up the skinless brown trout as it made its way upstream. Then I pulled the valve out and and compared it with the new valve. The old valve was about as warped and twisted as any hunk of rubber I've ever seen! I'd guess that the discharge was probably 70% blocked and the one way valve wasn't (one way that is). Now I understand the plunger that was sitting next to the toilet.

Not sure about other Pearson's, but my (86 P28 II) discharge pipe runs straight from the toilet thru the bulkhead to the holding tank. Groco no longer makes the crapper with a straight discharge, so I just took off their curved and reused the straight one from my old toilet. If anyone needs a curved pipe I'll happily send it to you, minus the joker valve.

As to the plug and play, although the guy at Groco said the pattern hasn't changed in years (and the discharge pipe fitting hadn't), the bolt pattern was different; wider and narrower - so I got to use one existing hole and drilled three new ones. No problem with drilling, but you need to make the hole thru the liner (plastic?) large enough to accomodate the bolt (lag bolt) so it won't crack. Best I can tell there is wood just under and then a void and I reused the lag bolts (didn't measure but I reckon about 1.5").

Bottom line is that apart from having to drill new holes, working in a tiny space, and the pain from kneeling on an uneven surface, not really a bad job. And in case you're wondering, when I removed the discharge pipe and knarly joker valve, no nasty "stuff" come out of the hose - in fact there wasn't even any unpleasant smell. Heck, probably nothing got thru that pipe to make it smell!

I should add that besides the joker valve, I did notice that the closing the valve (to dry) on the old toilet was much, much easier than on the new one. So, at the very least the toilet needed to be rebuilt and frankly I'm happy I went one step farther and replaced the whole thing. I'm going to make sure I rebuild the mechanism on a routine basis - every 3 to 4 years seems reasonable.

Thanks to all for their comments and suggestions and I hope this post helps someone out there.

 

[gundaddy]

Jim,
I did the same research you did, and was determined to put a PHII in my P-31. Measured as best I could, and found out that the "scale" drawings in the owner's manuals leave much to be desired. Made some cardboard templates to try to convince myself that the PHII would fit. It looked like it would. It didn't! It seems that I was unnecessarily concerned with the width of the bowl and the water intake fitting at the bowl. The critical dimension in my P-31 turned out to be the discharge elbow. The discharge ended up being too close to the back “wall” and the side of the vanity. I could have relocated the hole in the vanity where the hose goes, but the air conditioning through hull is located there, and interfered with any new plumbing that I wanted to do. I bought a new Groco HF, and it will fit perfectly. Groco truly does make a compact head in my case, where the controlling dimension is the distance that the discharge elbow protrudes from the “center line” of the base pipe.


Final question on this topic: How did you fill the extra holes? As you mentioned, the bolt pattern doesn’t line up. Not a big deal, but would like the “extra” holes to look somewhat finished when I fill them. Any ideas?


Pete

 

[JimLor]

Pete-I jammed some quick set epoxy in the 2 empty holes and will fill with white Marine tex when I can get to it. I considered the Raritan then decided it would probably wind up being more trouble than replacing with a like toilet. I did have trouble getting the joker valve to stop leaking, bjt I think I have it beat!

 

[JimLor]

For All. I had some questions about installation, and leaks, and called Groco and talked with John. Great guy to talk with and took about half an hour with me. Even invited me to tour their new factory.
Great support from Groco.

 

[gundaddy]

Any wisdom to share regarding joker valve fixes? I'm looking to finalize my installation this weekend.

 

[JimLor]

Joker valve should be horizontal-not sure why, but that's what John said. He said he didn't say this, but to get the discharge hise tighter, srop a towel around it and tbe flange, pour on boiling water-let sit a bit, remove and place the hose clamp and tighten. You can use silicone on the flange to help seal, but no petroleum- it will wreck the rubber valve.

And just remember that with plumbing no good deed goes unpunished!

 

[gundaddy]

Great gouge! Thanks much. I'll be doing the install today, so the timing is perfect.

 

[JimLor]

Good luck. While i never do it before installing something, taking a look at the instructions might be helpful-if you do, i won't tell anyone. John akso said do not use a heargun to warm the hose, it won't do it evenly. Again, good luck!

 

[gundaddy]

taking a look at the instructions might be helpful-if you do, i won't tell anyone.

Don't tell anyone...I made the mistake of looking at the directions. They say to install the joker valve vertically! Did rotating it to horizontal really fix your problem?