Thank you, thank you, for your opinions. I have written them down and plan to discuss and use the new keys words I am experiencing when I sail the boat. The old salts at my club are busy, so when I get their ear for a moment I hope to get good info on fixing the bottom of the boat.
Third summer, boat wont sail
- Thread starter gtg
- Start date
A ½" on a small boat is a fair amount. How are you measuring and to what are you measuring to? A protractor isn't going to be all that helpful. A plumb bob suspended from the main halyard may give more insight.
Given the other issues with your keel, the large headsail could cause the lee helm. Until you get the boat hauled, drop the centerboard and clean and fix it, you are tilting at windmills.
@gtg Ok there is a lot here but Ill try to keep this simple (yeah right). I race and cruise my wing keel and have for a number of year now. I am by no means the leader in the racing field but have learned quite a bit from the Nationals regattas and talking to various sail makers over the years.
1. Yes your bottom needs to be cleaned. Put on a swim suit, grab a scotch brite pad and get to work. If you cant swim use a pressure washer to clean all you can while it on your lift in the pictures.
2. Get that rudder down! 2 inches is huge and will cause significant weather helm. Racing boats add up to a 1 inch shim to the upper gudgeon to get the leading edge more vertical. Class rules state it cannot go under the transom but you want it to be straight. So crank down that bolt or do what you have to do. Most racers use a fixed blade to prevent the folding back as well.
3. C22s are notorious for weather helm not lee helm. I have sailed on a number over the last 29 years for both racing and cruising and never been on a single one that had lee helm but I suppose it is possible. None the less this is not something I would immediately chase out until the rig is properly tuned
4. Rig tune. North sails and the C22 manual have great tuning guides. Hopefully you have an adjustable backstay because to race you'll want one. With the backstay off the side stays on my rig start at 18-20 on a loose gauge and then go up to about 25 as the wind gets above 18kts. The rake is set somewhere between 9-13 inches as she floats on the water. Wing keels tend to want a bit more rake as they fight a bit more weather helm and I need to fight heel as well to prevent side slippage. Forestay at nose height should have almost 1 foot of side to side play with the backstay off. This feels loose like a hobie but allows you to really power up the headsail in lighter winds. As the wind increases then pull on the backstay. The boat is a masthead rig so the backstay does little to adjust rake. Setting the rake is mostly the job of the lower stays. The forwards I believe on mine start at 10-12 or something like that and the aft just sung. Yes all stays go slack on the leeward side. In this tuning configuration beware of mast pumping (shaking back and forth) if this happens stop and tighten the rig. Do not let the mast pump or you'll de-mast the boat before too long as it will stress the spreader joint and through bolt.
5. Sails. I hate to be the barer of bad news but those sails don't look right or "crisp" to my eye form the pictures in the slip. Its hard to judge though based on a no wind situation. Better to get some pictures from another boat while your racing. To point you'll need inside tracks so that the headsail can be trimmed into the spreaders. using your outside tracks will cost you 5 or so deg of pointing which is huge for VMG. Test it out by adding a barber hauler and going for a race. I did this with a line rigged to a cabin top cleat for a few races and was sold that inside tracks were necessary. Your Genoa should come to within an inch or two of the top of the mast and back to the rear window corner or so on the cabin. when fully sheeted in the sail should be within a few inches of the spreader tips. Use a bowman as your sail has no window and it can be difficult to see. Bumper boats are no fun. Also going downwind you'll need a proper whisker pole to hold that head sail out. This boat is headsail driven. All your power and point is in the headsail. The main is just for balance. Make sure you have the proper controls for the main (vang, main sheet, outhaul with purchase, downhaul, loose reefing lines if installed etc.) and read up on sail trim. Find the leader and follow them. What he or she does you do. watch their trim and copy it. Make small adjustments and you'll speed up. Ask if another racer will run Race Qs or a similar app on their phone as you race and compare the data. it will show you tacking angles, VMG, and why you fell behind. Best of all it's free (though the website is a bit our of date).
Once you have a handle on the first 5 steps then comes the fun of fine tuning your rig and climbing your way though the fleet. Please note though that all the above advice is given assuming the following:
you don't have a soft deck
your standing and running rigging is in great shape (no burrs, likely replaced in the last 5 years or less if in the water etc.)
your running rigging is in good shape
You are willing to stress the boat properly for racing (many casual sailors are afraid to truly run the boat)
you have proper understanding of sail trim, draft, and all controls
your keel pin, cable, etc. is in good working order (it will see lift just like the sails and will be loaded more than a day sail during the race)
and whatever else I forgot...
At the end of the day racing is about time in the boat. I race a Laser when I am not racing my C22 to keep my skills up. You can read all the books you want but nothing replaces time on the water and in the boat. Every boat is different (even in a OD class) and knowing your boat will make you a better / faster sailor.
If your around Arkansas in a couple weeks well be racing the Catalina 22 Naitonals again on Degrey lake and you should come by. You'll learn more in a couple days at an event like this than in a couple months of reading and online forums I promise. In fact I almost guarantee someone will take you onboard their boat and walk you thought what works and what does not work.
PS: I sent you a PM if you have other questions.
Picture of crisp sails (though not trimmed right on my part):
For reference we caught and passed the boat ahead of us in this shot downwind before the bottom mark. Weight forward on the downwind!
1. Yes your bottom needs to be cleaned. Put on a swim suit, grab a scotch brite pad and get to work. If you cant swim use a pressure washer to clean all you can while it on your lift in the pictures.
2. Get that rudder down! 2 inches is huge and will cause significant weather helm. Racing boats add up to a 1 inch shim to the upper gudgeon to get the leading edge more vertical. Class rules state it cannot go under the transom but you want it to be straight. So crank down that bolt or do what you have to do. Most racers use a fixed blade to prevent the folding back as well.
3. C22s are notorious for weather helm not lee helm. I have sailed on a number over the last 29 years for both racing and cruising and never been on a single one that had lee helm but I suppose it is possible. None the less this is not something I would immediately chase out until the rig is properly tuned
4. Rig tune. North sails and the C22 manual have great tuning guides. Hopefully you have an adjustable backstay because to race you'll want one. With the backstay off the side stays on my rig start at 18-20 on a loose gauge and then go up to about 25 as the wind gets above 18kts. The rake is set somewhere between 9-13 inches as she floats on the water. Wing keels tend to want a bit more rake as they fight a bit more weather helm and I need to fight heel as well to prevent side slippage. Forestay at nose height should have almost 1 foot of side to side play with the backstay off. This feels loose like a hobie but allows you to really power up the headsail in lighter winds. As the wind increases then pull on the backstay. The boat is a masthead rig so the backstay does little to adjust rake. Setting the rake is mostly the job of the lower stays. The forwards I believe on mine start at 10-12 or something like that and the aft just sung. Yes all stays go slack on the leeward side. In this tuning configuration beware of mast pumping (shaking back and forth) if this happens stop and tighten the rig. Do not let the mast pump or you'll de-mast the boat before too long as it will stress the spreader joint and through bolt.
5. Sails. I hate to be the barer of bad news but those sails don't look right or "crisp" to my eye form the pictures in the slip. Its hard to judge though based on a no wind situation. Better to get some pictures from another boat while your racing. To point you'll need inside tracks so that the headsail can be trimmed into the spreaders. using your outside tracks will cost you 5 or so deg of pointing which is huge for VMG. Test it out by adding a barber hauler and going for a race. I did this with a line rigged to a cabin top cleat for a few races and was sold that inside tracks were necessary. Your Genoa should come to within an inch or two of the top of the mast and back to the rear window corner or so on the cabin. when fully sheeted in the sail should be within a few inches of the spreader tips. Use a bowman as your sail has no window and it can be difficult to see. Bumper boats are no fun. Also going downwind you'll need a proper whisker pole to hold that head sail out. This boat is headsail driven. All your power and point is in the headsail. The main is just for balance. Make sure you have the proper controls for the main (vang, main sheet, outhaul with purchase, downhaul, loose reefing lines if installed etc.) and read up on sail trim. Find the leader and follow them. What he or she does you do. watch their trim and copy it. Make small adjustments and you'll speed up. Ask if another racer will run Race Qs or a similar app on their phone as you race and compare the data. it will show you tacking angles, VMG, and why you fell behind. Best of all it's free (though the website is a bit our of date).
Once you have a handle on the first 5 steps then comes the fun of fine tuning your rig and climbing your way though the fleet. Please note though that all the above advice is given assuming the following:
you don't have a soft deck
your standing and running rigging is in great shape (no burrs, likely replaced in the last 5 years or less if in the water etc.)
your running rigging is in good shape
You are willing to stress the boat properly for racing (many casual sailors are afraid to truly run the boat)
you have proper understanding of sail trim, draft, and all controls
your keel pin, cable, etc. is in good working order (it will see lift just like the sails and will be loaded more than a day sail during the race)
and whatever else I forgot...
At the end of the day racing is about time in the boat. I race a Laser when I am not racing my C22 to keep my skills up. You can read all the books you want but nothing replaces time on the water and in the boat. Every boat is different (even in a OD class) and knowing your boat will make you a better / faster sailor.
If your around Arkansas in a couple weeks well be racing the Catalina 22 Naitonals again on Degrey lake and you should come by. You'll learn more in a couple days at an event like this than in a couple months of reading and online forums I promise. In fact I almost guarantee someone will take you onboard their boat and walk you thought what works and what does not work.
PS: I sent you a PM if you have other questions.
Picture of crisp sails (though not trimmed right on my part):
For reference we caught and passed the boat ahead of us in this shot downwind before the bottom mark. Weight forward on the downwind!
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Yep. Thats why there is no such thing as a cheap or free boat. Like a German car, they are usually much cheaper in both time and money if you buy one in good shape.
I would definitely deal with the swing keel first. If the pin fails, and the keel drops off, the boat will immediately capsize.
Once that is done, you have a safer boat, and you have also eliminated one of the factors in how the boat handles.
Maybe you can find a used one, nearby, in reasonable shape
Hully heck, @LakeShark, great views. I just got off the phone with Catalina Tech support, he was discussing the very #5 "To point you'll need inside tracks so that the headsail can be trimmed into the spreaders...."
Lookslike, y'all I have a bit more sweat equity and some cash to invest.
Thanks for the invite to AR. I just may.
I think everyone does that when you service the keel.
Shims stop the keel from sliding side to side to remove the clunk.
My boat was done just before I bought it. New pin, new keel hangers, and refinished keel. Supposedly it was better than most even before it was refurbished. Partial due to it being a freshwater boat since new.
There some threads here on c22 keel repairs that are downright shocking. The c22 is a well made boat but the original cast-iron swing keels were corrosion prone. That is why Catalina switched to fibreglassed lead keels. I believe they were around $2000 a few years ago.
Shoot if your lake is in OK you should borrow a trailer and come race! we need another boat or two in Silver (less competitive) fleet. Its a great time and there are going to be a number of OK boats there. That area of the country has a lot of Catalina 22 racers and parts are easily available from many as a lot of racers keep a "spare" boat.
Many do. Racers if they have room and are on the more competitive side look for good deals on hulls with needed parts. Older lower numbered boats are preferred or weight reasons. Masts and rudders are the most common casualties for those racing at the top.
Before @gtg replaces the keel though it would be best to get more information. Like does it have a lot of side to side slop. When was the last time the pivot pin, cable, and turning ball replaced. What does it look like after a good power wash. I know everyone wants to assume the worst on the keel because that is usually what the forum features in pictures but if this is a freshwater boat it may be salvageable for general mid week racing.
In the end its a matter of cost vs competitiveness. There is a balance to be had. These are Catalina 22's not J boats. They are not the fastest on the lake but fun for some family round the buoy racing. It really come down to the OP desires. If you want an all out racing machine well:
Remove the traveler and add the Blarney post
Fair the keel and rudder with the proper foil
Make the bottom like glass and keep the boat out of the water except during the race
Get a low (sub100) Hull number
Strip out anything on the interior not required by the class rules
Buy a full set of composite sails form Joe Waters
Install the running rigging for a Genoa Cunningham, boom kicker, and install a bridge on the companionway to organize lines
Sail hard and often. Get that crew on the rail asap
Get the remaining weight forward and down size to a 2hp or small motor (you'll have to add weight to come to class spec)
By the time you fully outfit the boat you'll easily have 10K in it if starting from scratch. Wise racers typically wait and buy an already race rigged early hull. This year at nationals Hulls 8, 27, and 38 will all make appearances and be sailing hard for the win. They have had more than a few owners over the years and continue to preform well. For comparison my hull number is 14267. We are not the most competitive but enjoy the comradery of learning and racing against many friends.
OK, that explains a lot. Perhaps those are blisters on the hull and the centerboard. At any rate, you can't expect to get much of a boat for $200.00 without putting in a few thousand more and a lot of work.
The original C22 came in swing keel and afterwards offered in a fief fin keel. The wing keel was introduced around 1990. They were cast iron keels. Cannot recall if the wing keel was cast in lead or not but a magnet will tell as it would only stick to cast iron.
it was pretty fouled swing keel as mentioned. You have a bolt that goes through the keel and held fast to the hull by two hangers. Replace the hangers along with the four stainless steel bolts as the hangers re probably worn out. Replace retaining bolt. The hole in the keel is probably enlargened out And needs to be addressed. If The keel Boyce’s bank and forth add shims. Parts can be obtained from Catalina Yschts located in Largo, Florida and ask for Skip. You can go to Catalina Direct too but are separate from Catalina Yachts.
please repost photos of keel
too much weather helm Or to little is due to rake of mast. If there is no more adjustment in the turnbuckles then you need new standing rigging.
I was a former dealer since 1988 but now retired v
it was pretty fouled swing keel as mentioned. You have a bolt that goes through the keel and held fast to the hull by two hangers. Replace the hangers along with the four stainless steel bolts as the hangers re probably worn out. Replace retaining bolt. The hole in the keel is probably enlargened out And needs to be addressed. If The keel Boyce’s bank and forth add shims. Parts can be obtained from Catalina Yschts located in Largo, Florida and ask for Skip. You can go to Catalina Direct too but are separate from Catalina Yachts.
please repost photos of keel
too much weather helm Or to little is due to rake of mast. If there is no more adjustment in the turnbuckles then you need new standing rigging.
I was a former dealer since 1988 but now retired v