Swing keel position down wind?

[Cliff]

If I don’t get caught, does it matter which?

Now if a person were to think this way while racing what fun would it be to win. Then would I want to race against them, my answer would be no I would'nt. I take my racing very serious and what fun would it be to win knowing I had done something that I knew was wrong. For me it would a be a hollow win and one that I really could not accept what fun would it be. I am not sure if Paul was serious about this but I think racing also has the honor system in place. If one were racing at night and realized they had missed a mark and won ther class or the whole regatta would they then take the 1st place knowing they had missed a mark? Not me it just would not be right and I would always know I really did not win. Cliff

 

[Michael7968]

Yea

That's why I don't like to mess with the centerboard. Not sure what actually happens -- again, my old boat the keel was a swing keel and I never messed with it while sailing ( I knew someone who had a swing keel out on SF Bay when I lived there. The wind was light so they raised the keel going downwind. The wind came up -- SF Bay remember -- and, forgetting the keel, they turned toward the wind, and the boat rolled over. No one was hurt, and the boat was fixed, but still). The habit is still there. I do know people raise them while running -- I don't know if it would impact stability too much (I think I doubt it), but it might impact steering if the wind wasn't dead from behind.?? Those who do raise it regularly, what say you??

 

[Mark]

I new it woulod wind you all up

As soon as I mentioned pulling the keel up whilst racing. (hook line & sinker)

 

[George H260]

center board, swing keel, whatever

ask any one design racer/ sailor why you raise your board while going downwind. the board causes resistence, and has no effect on steering downwind. the resistance caused can be a safety factor. an unexpected change of wind could cause boat to roll one way and not be able to get back on its feet quickly enough with board down.a one design racer could explain this better, check with flying scots or lasers or any other centerboard designed boats

 

[Dick1505]

Why not figured into the PHRF?

I would have thought it fugured into the rating. It is a characteristic of the the boat type. A 6' keel boat will go into the wind better than a wing keel. The swing keel boat is not going to go into the wind as well as either, but has the advantage of being able to reduce the drag down wind and doesn't create an inherent danger as would emptying water ballast tanks. Isn't it the way the boat should be sailed?

 

[Paul J. Rusyniak]

The honor system goes well beyond racing!!!

When Ed posted his question, I took it as an honest inquiry, a request for information. He didn’t mention racing and I looked forward to the responses, presuming they’d deal with the safety and effectiveness of raising the swing keel.We have a 2001 h260, are NOT involved in racing and sail on a relatively shoal lake that is VERY weedy.True running with the h260 is difficult due to the swept-back spreaders, so we normally do a series of connected gibed broad reaches.Say you’re on a broad reach, port tack, and your destination is slightly to starboard. You gibe to a starboard tack and the destination Is now slightly to port.I find that if I raise the keel, the boat seems to go a tad faster, seems to do a little less harvesting and seems to skid/crab closer to where I want to go.I don’t do this when the wind kicks up (can’t give you the wind speed, as we don’t have an anemometer) because steering becomes more difficult and broaching is a very real possibility.Again, I was most anxious to see the responses to Ed’s question.Up to the point of my previous posting to this thread, most of the responses dwelled on:1.is it a keel or a centerboard or a dagger board?2.is it illegal, or just breaking the rules?3.if you don’t get caught doing something illegal or breaking the rules, is it OK to do (will I get arrested)?4.is cheating against the rules?I consider that a pretty sad commentary!!!Ed then clarified his original question. As I took it, he’s not a racer, but is interested in safety and performance.Yes, Cliff, I was very serious!!! Am I being too intense about this thread? Should I just have taken the whole issue as meaningless drivel?The honor system goes well beyond racing!!!Was I just being baited into responding to what I took (and still take) as a sincere request for information?Pauls/v The Lord Nelson

 

[Ed Childres]

No bait from me

Paul,I appreciate your response. You understood my question correctly to be without any hidden meaning.Maybe other 260 owners are not reading these questions. Maybe racing or at least honesty in how you race is a subject with more intrest. Maybe other 260 owners only want to cruse and don't care about more speed. Maybe learning new skills is contradictory to crusing for some people.Even though entertaining I do find it interesting that 1) these threads have a hard time staying focused or 2) have little or no response.

 

[Tom2909]

Has anyone measured the difference?

I have. I've wondered about how much difference it makes with board up or down, down wind. Once I actually measured it with both GPS (relative to bottom) and Knot stick (relative to water) at the same time. Board up down or somewhere in between -- made no difference. I leave it down. Hunter recommends leaving it down at all times, too.Fair winds,Tom

 

[Sean Coerse]

The Answer

According to our handicapper and race comitte guru it is not illegal to raise the centerboard. The boat was designed to be sailed this way and the PHRF rating reflects it. Sailing without ballast would violate the rules. If anyone has accidently forgot to open the ballast when launching and stepped onto the boat after it's in the water I dont think they would ever consider sailing like this.

 

[Paul]

Ed

You appear to be correct in your assessment!Paul

 

[Michael7968]

Strange indeed

Never quite understood why people take this kind of interchange personally.I think that's why we have this board -- to talk about sailing our Hunters in a fun, non-threatening way.Let's not get testy, hey?

 

[Cliff]

Subject Changing

Allot of times someone will post a question and the answers they get will chanage the direction of the post like in this thread when the racing issue was brought up. My only input was to bring it to some of the sailor's attention. We had an instance where some one did something with out telling the PHRF committe. When it was discovered he was banned from racing for a year and all he had won that year had been taken back. He then got himself a label. I would hate to see that happen to someone who thought what they were doing was ok like lifting the board going down wind. If this was ileagle and they got caught and were protested they could also get them self's a label. Not something I would want. I also think there is no difference between cheating, breaking the rules or only if I get caught. This to me makes our sport ugly and I would not want to see that happen, it happens enough in other sport's. In reguards to the orginal question, I think raising the board going down wind would not change as much as you might think. Unless the board come up into the boat completly. If half of the board is still exposed then the shape is all wrong and it might cause more drag then if left all the way down. With the board left down you will still pick up stability with it.Cliff

 

[bleathen]

PHRF and water depth

The lake I sail and race on is shallow - (the water behind lock and dam no 7 on the mississippi.) There are no H26's in the race fleet but there are some Precision 23's. When the water is low, it is impossible for them to put the board down all the way. So they can not go up wind as well as they might. On down wind legs I am sure they raise their boards. As far as the race committee is concerned, they just use the published PHRF ratings. If you had to go into every detail, their PHRF would have to be revised relative to the condition of the river. I beleive I have watched Laser races where the sailers raise their boards on down wind runs. It is not a perfect world, but as far as i know, no one in our club considers it cheating when the Precisions adjust their boards. After all, there are some boats racing out there that don't have jib sheet travelors. I would be a little disapointed if my H23 where I have invested in a travelor, were to be penalized to a H23 that does not have a travelor. So who's cheating? I sail with my keel all day long up wind and down wind. The Precision guy can't lower his board all the way on up wind runs, but can raise it on down wind runs. To me it is all part of the race.

 

[Ashley]

Hey Ed

I have raised my centerboard on a run in light air trying to keep the boat moving enough to justify keeping the sails up. Heck, I thought that was one of the advantages of a swing keel boat. Did seem to notice an increase in speed, definite increase in leeway (since you really can't sail DDW) and didn't notice a decrease in stability, but I have only tried it in easy winds. I don't have a knot log and only recently purchased a GPS so I can't tell you for sure if raising the board increases the speed. Based on Tom's post, it may not even be worth the trouble. Maybe turning the rudder to compensate for leeway adds more drag that nullifies the advantages of raising the board? Might be a stretch.....It has peaked my interest though, may try it this weekend just for grins.

 

[Sean Coerse]

Speed Gain

In 7-12 knots I have gained as much as a 1/2 knot of boat speed by raising the board as messured on a GPS. It is important to get crew weight forward. My son is at the base of the mast and my jib trimer is against the forward balkhead. I get as far forward as tiller extension will allow. Do not allow anyone in the stern rail seats during a race on any point of sail. In real light air I position crew weight to leeward to give the boat some heal. This makes it easier for the sails to stay full.

 

[PBzeer]

Down or Up?

I'm also on a shallow lake (3 ft in spots), though when we race we stay in the deeper parts. For everyday sailing, I generally put the centerboard on my H26 about halfway down. When we race, and we have Catalina's and San Juan's and some fixed keel H23's, the rule is, board down at all times.I'm not sure about the centerboard on the H260, but I have a 2:1 tackle on my centerboard and still have to use the winch to raise it, so perhaps the H26 has a weighted centerboard (it certainly feels weighted when I'm raising or lowering it.I'm not a serious racer, but from what I've learned from those who are is that most things are set up at the beginning of the race, vis-a-vis things such as the centerboard up or down. From my reading on boats and design though, I do believe that all centerboard boats are designed to be sailed with board down, except in shallow water situations.Fair winds,John

 

[s sauer]

Center board boats

We've had a center board Bristol 40 racing in our PHRF fleet boat for boat with a fixed keel Bristol 40. We traded crews and raced again. Each time the centerboard boat was faster, though theoretically it should not have been. Perhaps the bottom was better or the sails were better, but the handicapp stayed where it was as those are two factors that are up to the owner not the PHRF handicapp. When cruising with the center board version, we can raise the board if we need to decreases weather helm as it swings back as you raise it.As someone mentioned, various dingy racers typically lift the board halfway up on down wind runs. I feel that's built into the handicapp rating and isn't cheating if the entire fleet allows it. However, I don't know about the stability and safety of a water ballasted boat with the board up; that sounds like an invitation to capsize.

 

[Sean Coerse]

Cenerboard

The centerboard on the 240 and 260 is not designed as ballast. It is designed to give the boat lift and allow it to sail to weather. The reason it is a centerboard with water ballast and not a keel is to allow for easier trailering. I raced many different one design dingies with centerboards and daggerboards. In every fleet the board is adjusted based on point of sail for optimum performance. Id challenge anyone to capsize a 240 or 260. I've sailed mine in 25+ knots. The boat will heel until the rubrail hits the water. After that the rudder will come out of the water causing the boat to spin out. Sure you could theoretically get knocked over but if you are sailing one of these boats in those conditions you are well beyond the design limits of the boat and have no one to blame but yourself. This thread has been hammered to death lets move on.

 

[Michael7968]

One final comment from me

"This thread has been hammered to death lets move on."I understand in some ways Sean, but . . .This is a discussion board -- if people are interested in talking about a topic they should feel free to do so. If not, they won't. And that's ok too.To me, the "rule" should only be that we do it in a friendly manner. Why not? What's at stake here -- this isn't our job. We are not harmed if others talk about something we aren't interested in.I remember when I first came here. I was a new Hunter owner, and I was curious where people have sailed their smaller Hunters -- that is, how far they had ventured. So I started a thread and asked. Anyway, someone on the board (I don't remember who -- and I am glad of that) wrote in response, quite tersely, something like -- "Why in the world would you want to know that?"I remember staring at the screen thinking, "Why in the world would he care why I want to know that?" That kind of attitude makes no sense to me -- no one is forced to read or respond to anything. And that is how it should be. But on the other hand, no one should try to stop others from discussing what they want to.And, of course, no one has to agree with me on any of this.

 

[Rock Smith]

Faster

Definitely faster in a 216. Several times when running with others, singlehanded, pulling hte board up allows me ro pull away. MO loss in stability although I have felt preacarious in gusts. Handicaps cover design differences. It should be as legal as twisitng your sail.