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centerboard
I phrf race my H240. Winward leward course. As soon as we round the winward mark we raise the board 2/3 up. I have marked my centerboard line at full down, 1/3, and 2/3 down. Reduces drag. Depending on wind strength we jibe down wind. If 12 knots or over we run wing and wing with whisker pole. Usualy pass boats down wind and try to hold them off upwind.
I phrf race my H240. Winward leward course. As soon as we round the winward mark we raise the board 2/3 up. I have marked my centerboard line at full down, 1/3, and 2/3 down. Reduces drag. Depending on wind strength we jibe down wind. If 12 knots or over we run wing and wing with whisker pole. Usualy pass boats down wind and try to hold them off upwind.
You Know changing the keel postion is illegal
I think if you check with your local PHRF raising the keel on any point of sail is against the rule's. Cliff
I think if you check with your local PHRF raising the keel on any point of sail is against the rule's. Cliff
Illegal and arrested and Cheating
Steve, No you won't be arrested but cheating is cheating. I would never want to win doing this. The reason this rule is in place is because the rest of the fleet can not change ther keel postion if one were racing against a fleet of H 260 and they could all do this then it would be legal. But to race against a fleet of boats that can not change ther keel postion and a person does it is cheating no way around it. If the boat is rated with having the keel up down wind then it is allowed like on the S 2 7.9. The PHRF number reflects this. Cliff
Steve, No you won't be arrested but cheating is cheating. I would never want to win doing this. The reason this rule is in place is because the rest of the fleet can not change ther keel postion if one were racing against a fleet of H 260 and they could all do this then it would be legal. But to race against a fleet of boats that can not change ther keel postion and a person does it is cheating no way around it. If the boat is rated with having the keel up down wind then it is allowed like on the S 2 7.9. The PHRF number reflects this. Cliff
Are we sure
Are we sure about this? Remember we are not talking about a keel -- we are talking about a centerboard. I know that centerboards are routinely and legally raised in all sorts of sailing races. I don't know about the PHRF rules. But, we should not assume unless we look it up.
Are we sure about this? Remember we are not talking about a keel -- we are talking about a centerboard. I know that centerboards are routinely and legally raised in all sorts of sailing races. I don't know about the PHRF rules. But, we should not assume unless we look it up.
Yes I am sure about this Cheating is Cheating
In classes like the Lighting, Interlake, Sunfish pretty much all of the dagger board boat's all have a board or keel that can be raised. But the PHRF # is figured with this in mind. All of these boats usually race in class where all is equal since they all can lift up ther board's or Keels. On the H 23.5,240 and 26 they have a weighted keel that is like a dagger board. When going down wind Sean raises his board so he can reduce his wetted surface area of his keel while dragging it through the water. He has changed his under water foot print. His PHRF # is not baised on this, the only reason his keel is designed to be raised is for on the trailor or shallow water. While racing the board is supposed to be down all the time, Since none of the other boats can raise ther keel it then becomes cheating. He has changed his foot print when no one else is able to do this. If he was racing in a fleet of H 23.5,240 a 260 who can all raise ther keels when going down wind then it would be an even playing field and would be allowed if all had agreed. Cliff
In classes like the Lighting, Interlake, Sunfish pretty much all of the dagger board boat's all have a board or keel that can be raised. But the PHRF # is figured with this in mind. All of these boats usually race in class where all is equal since they all can lift up ther board's or Keels. On the H 23.5,240 and 26 they have a weighted keel that is like a dagger board. When going down wind Sean raises his board so he can reduce his wetted surface area of his keel while dragging it through the water. He has changed his under water foot print. His PHRF # is not baised on this, the only reason his keel is designed to be raised is for on the trailor or shallow water. While racing the board is supposed to be down all the time, Since none of the other boats can raise ther keel it then becomes cheating. He has changed his foot print when no one else is able to do this. If he was racing in a fleet of H 23.5,240 a 260 who can all raise ther keels when going down wind then it would be an even playing field and would be allowed if all had agreed. Cliff
Movable Ballest
According to the rules "Ballest may not be moved for the purpose of changing trim" Since the Keel on these boats is also ballest it can not be moved. Found it on US Sailing web site in the rules section. Cliff
According to the rules "Ballest may not be moved for the purpose of changing trim" Since the Keel on these boats is also ballest it can not be moved. Found it on US Sailing web site in the rules section. Cliff
I guess . . .
I guess, but not sure I think of these as weighted. My old boat had a weighted swing keel. It weighed in at almost 800 pounds. That was the ballast. It required a heavy duty winch to raise it. I raise the Hunter centerboard easily with a line and no winch. The water ballast boats carry their ballast in the water tanks -- now draining that would be cheating for sure. But raising the centerboard is a different to me. I say this not because of the racing -- I've never raced PHRF in my life, and not likely ever to. Nor do I raise my centerboard while sailing. But the rule you cite doesn't seem to quite address our situation. Do they not mention a non-weighted centerboard?
I guess, but not sure I think of these as weighted. My old boat had a weighted swing keel. It weighed in at almost 800 pounds. That was the ballast. It required a heavy duty winch to raise it. I raise the Hunter centerboard easily with a line and no winch. The water ballast boats carry their ballast in the water tanks -- now draining that would be cheating for sure. But raising the centerboard is a different to me. I say this not because of the racing -- I've never raced PHRF in my life, and not likely ever to. Nor do I raise my centerboard while sailing. But the rule you cite doesn't seem to quite address our situation. Do they not mention a non-weighted centerboard?
5lbs or 500 lbs
You quote "But the rule you cite doesn't seem to quite address our situation. Do they not mention a non-weighted centerboard?" Sorry the Center board is part of the ballest. If it weights 5 lbs or 500 lbs it is ballest. When racing if the keel is raised then they are changing the underwater foot print and if all the boats can not do this then it is illegal. No way around it unless the PHRF # takes this into consideration and this is not the case with the water ballest boat's. It is pretty simple, you are not allowed to move your keel up when sailing down wind. Like I stated about what the rules say it does not matter what the keel weights ballest is ballest whether it is 10 lbs or 500 lbs. These water ballest boats were designed to be trailored with a swing keel. If they did not use water for ballest then the exact same boat would have a 800 lb swing keel and cranking it up for the down wind would also be cheating. Cliff
You quote "But the rule you cite doesn't seem to quite address our situation. Do they not mention a non-weighted centerboard?" Sorry the Center board is part of the ballest. If it weights 5 lbs or 500 lbs it is ballest. When racing if the keel is raised then they are changing the underwater foot print and if all the boats can not do this then it is illegal. No way around it unless the PHRF # takes this into consideration and this is not the case with the water ballest boat's. It is pretty simple, you are not allowed to move your keel up when sailing down wind. Like I stated about what the rules say it does not matter what the keel weights ballest is ballest whether it is 10 lbs or 500 lbs. These water ballest boats were designed to be trailored with a swing keel. If they did not use water for ballest then the exact same boat would have a 800 lb swing keel and cranking it up for the down wind would also be cheating. Cliff
I'm suprised,
this hasn't opened up a hole new can of worms!! If it can be raised, isn't it a centerboard? And should be raised going downwind, for safety reasons. If your boat has a retractable keel, centerboard, then you displacement is probably very light, and you should raise to allow some side to side, so you dont broach, like a day sailor, you want it to skip across the water!
this hasn't opened up a hole new can of worms!! If it can be raised, isn't it a centerboard? And should be raised going downwind, for safety reasons. If your boat has a retractable keel, centerboard, then you displacement is probably very light, and you should raise to allow some side to side, so you dont broach, like a day sailor, you want it to skip across the water!
Wow
Wow didn't think such a contraversy. I'll check with my local handicapper, but I'm willing to bet my boat is rated with this ability in mind. A PHRF certificate is pretty detailed. The boat was designed with this and the PHRF certificate notes draft with board up and down. This is all calculated into my rating. I am usually the smallest boat in the fleet. We have 3 divisions; spinaker, non spinaker 1, non spinaker 2. All 3 start at the same time. Start has boats 45' to 24' competing at same time. My class has boats up to 35'. Some are keel centerboard designed boats. I'll bet they even raise and lower board, but I'll let everyone know what I hear back
Wow didn't think such a contraversy. I'll check with my local handicapper, but I'm willing to bet my boat is rated with this ability in mind. A PHRF certificate is pretty detailed. The boat was designed with this and the PHRF certificate notes draft with board up and down. This is all calculated into my rating. I am usually the smallest boat in the fleet. We have 3 divisions; spinaker, non spinaker 1, non spinaker 2. All 3 start at the same time. Start has boats 45' to 24' competing at same time. My class has boats up to 35'. Some are keel centerboard designed boats. I'll bet they even raise and lower board, but I'll let everyone know what I hear back
Word usage-- Illegal or rules violation
Cliff, I concur that to raise the CB would be cheating. There is a difference however between violating "rules" and doing something that is "illegal". I also play with the CB position when cruising. Steve
Cliff, I concur that to raise the CB would be cheating. There is a difference however between violating "rules" and doing something that is "illegal". I also play with the CB position when cruising. Steve
WHAT JUST HAPPENED???
If I conceal a turbo thruster under my hull, is that “violating the rules" or is that “doing something illegal"? If I don’t get caught, does it matter which? Paul PS This is really a sad commentary!!!
If I conceal a turbo thruster under my hull, is that “violating the rules" or is that “doing something illegal"? If I don’t get caught, does it matter which? Paul PS This is really a sad commentary!!!
Clarification
I guess that I should have stated that I am a cruser not a racer. I am interested in safely obtaining the maximum speed down wind by using every tool I have available. Thank you to Sean, Mark & Steve. I understood your answers to indicate an advantage to raising the swing keel (center board). So on the next outing I will start experimenting with this tool that I obviously didn't know I had.
I guess that I should have stated that I am a cruser not a racer. I am interested in safely obtaining the maximum speed down wind by using every tool I have available. Thank you to Sean, Mark & Steve. I understood your answers to indicate an advantage to raising the swing keel (center board). So on the next outing I will start experimenting with this tool that I obviously didn't know I had.
Down Wind with the board up
I would think the boat would be less stable going down wind with the board up. yes the board is just being dragged along but it is also being used to keep the boat stable just like it would going up wind. But only way to tell would be to try it and have some crew sit along the rail to see if the boats heals more or less. Cliff
I would think the boat would be less stable going down wind with the board up. yes the board is just being dragged along but it is also being used to keep the boat stable just like it would going up wind. But only way to tell would be to try it and have some crew sit along the rail to see if the boats heals more or less. Cliff
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