Some Thoughts on the "Bounty" Sinking.

[anchorclanker]

Perhaps rather than compare a ship to a school bus full of kids, we could compare it to a tour bus full of seniors heading for the casino. In either instance the Bus and the peoples lives are at the mercy of the driver, or in this case, the Captain.

Reading the FB website as well as the Ships website, The Captain commanded Bounty from Boothbay Harbor on Thursday the 25, intent to sail straight to St Petersburg, head on into Sandy, who's position he (as well as everyone in the world) was fully aware of, as well as Sandy's forecast track and her strength. Regardless of concerns raised by many on the FB page as the trip progressed toward Sandy, and as Sandy grew in strength and her track was further assessed, he remained on course, adamant that he was making the best decision. Over those four days Bounty covered over 800 nautical miles of eastern shore, passing up Long Island Sound and the entire Chesapeake bay, with all their hundreds of harbors and safe anchorages they offered, and could have at any time sought refuge.

This tragedy did not come about from a situation where they got caught in a freak storm that blew up out of nothing. It was not caused by a faulty generator or inability to pump water, those were secondary. Its primary cause of loss was its position. It simply should NOT have been there under any circumstances. This Captain had four days to avoid that storm, but spent those four days charting a course headlong into it. There is nothing at all fascinating about what transpired, and were probably very lucky there was not greater loss of life. It certainly wasnt for lack of trying.

 

[Maine Sail]

Perhaps rather than compare a ship to a school bus full of kids, we could compare it to a tour bus full of seniors heading for the casino. In either instance the Bus and the peoples lives are at the mercy of the driver, or in this case, the Captain.

Reading the FB website as well as the Ships website, The Captain commanded Bounty from Boothbay Harbor on Thursday the 25, intent to sail straight to St Petersburg, head on into Sandy, who's position he (as well as everyone in the world) was fully aware of, as well as Sandy's forecast track and her strength. Regardless of concerns raised by many on the FB page as the trip progressed toward Sandy, and as Sandy grew in strength and her track was further assessed, he remained on course, adamant that he was making the best decision. Over those four days Bounty covered over 800 nautical miles of eastern shore, passing up Long Island Sound and the entire Chesapeake bay, with all their hundreds of harbors and safe anchorages they offered, and could have at any time sought refuge.

This tragedy did not come about from a situation where they got caught in a freak storm that blew up out of nothing. It was not caused by a faulty generator or inability to pump water, those were secondary. Its primary cause of loss was its position. It simply should NOT have been there under any circumstances. This Captain had four days to avoid that storm, but spent those four days charting a course headlong into it. There is nothing at all fascinating about what transpired, and were probably very lucky there was not greater loss of life. It certainly wasnt for lack of trying.

This was originally posted by HMS Bounty on Oct 27th on the HMS Bounty Facebook page...


"Bounty's current voyage is a calculated decision...NOT AT ALL... irresponsible or with a lack of foresight as some have suggested.
The fact of the matter is...

A SHIP IS SAFER AT SEA THAN IN PORT!"

Where I get lost in all this is here:

Posted by HMS Bounty on Oct 25th:
"Bounty has departed New London CT...Next Port of Call...St. Petersburg, Florida.
Bounty will be sailing due East out to sea before heading South to avoid the brunt of Hurricane Sandy."

Due East????

 

[Roger Long]

This was originally posted by HMS Bounty on Oct 27th on the HMS Bounty Facebook page... A SHIP IS SAFER AT SEA THAN IN PORT!"

It makes me sick to hear that old saw. Nothing could better illustrate the poverty of thinking that leads to tragedies like this (a tragedy is different than an accident).

What ship?
What port?
What berthing arrangements?
What weather conditions?
What condition of ship?
What route?
What level of crew experience and ability?

And, finally and most important:

Is it's crew safer at sea than sitting in a bar watching their ship being battered against a pier?

The real intellectual divide in the world today is not between right and left, liberal and conservative, but between those who believe that the world is a simple place where faithful adherence to a few basic principles will lead to the desired results and those who understand that we live in an exceedingly complex universe where the devil is in the details and a lot of analysis must be brought to every decision. The upcoming election is, at its core, is about this choice so be sure to go out and vote for yours.

 

[TomY]

Check your facts before you speculate...... that's the responsible thing to do.

The facts of the storm were out front. The storm was well forecast. The available time to make decisions was more than ample. The decision to head into it's general vicinity and risk the lives on board instead of seeking harbor, I believe was irresponsible.

 

[inarathree]

I'm sad, as she was coming home to St Petersburg, FL after a long absence. I visited her many times growing up, and was excited to take my daughter to see her.


The superior sailor is one who uses his superior judgement to avoid the use of his superior skills.

 

[Scott B]

Just some more interesting thoughts.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novasc...in-questions-bounty-being-at-sea-during-storm

Picton Castle captain questions Bounty being at sea during storm

The captain of the Picton Castle says he can’t understand why the Bounty was at sea Monday when a massive hurricane was forecast to hit.
Indeed, Dan Moreland postponed leaving Lunenburg more than a week ago precisely because of hurricane Sandy.
“It was an easy decision to make,” he said. “It’s black and white, there are no nuances with this. It’s a huge system and that made the decision very simple.”
Moreland said he has known Robin Walbridge, the longtime captain of the Bounty, for years and he is an experienced seaman, but Moreland said he was shocked that Walbridge decided to sail, given the forecast.
“Yes, I have to say yes, I can’t say anything else. When I first heard the Bounty was out there, I thought, ‘You’ve got to be kidding.’ ”

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/20..._crew-members-tall-ship-pride-of-baltimore-ii

Local captain baffled by HMS Bounty accident

October 29, 2012|By Jonathan Pitts, The Baltimore Sun
When Jan Miles got word that HMS Bounty, the famed ceremonial tall ship, had sunk off the coast of North Carolina in the monster Hurricane Sandy early Monday morning, he felt profoundly the loss of a historic vessel — and worried over the possible fates of the two crew members who have yet to be found in what were 40-foot waves earlier in the day.
"The ship has given a lot of joy and happiness to a wide range of people," said Miles, captain of the locally-based tall ship Pride of Baltimore II. "In that sense alone this is very bad news. And if there's loss of life, holy cow, there's no ambivalence about that. What a tragedy that will be."
But Miles feels ambivalent about how the accident occurred. He's mystified as to why the captain, Robin Walbridge, would have set forth on the ship's scheduled voyage from New London, Conn., to St. Petersburg, Fla., this week in the first place.

 

[Benny17441]

So true Roger, the more experience we have the easier it becomes to fool ourselves. It seems obvious that these sailors loved that ship and were willing to risk hardship to save her from what may have seemed an impeding doom should they have stayed in port. The fact that the Captain took a full crew an not just the necessary hands tends to indicate he was confident that they could handle the passage. At this point we don't really know wether it was a mechanical or structural failure or if they simply did not understand the effects of these huge storm the likes of which rarelly seen. As hurricanes go this was a mild one but its huge size amplified the duration of the punishment it would dish out perhaps making it the equivalent of a much larger storm. The ship was based in St. Petersburg, FL for a few years and a lot of the crew comes from this area. They were coming down for a reunion of sorts. The local news media has been interviewing former crew members and they all seem to have one thing in common and that is that they loved the ship, they regarded it as home for some years and were looking forward to seeing her and the friends that were sailing her.

 

[zeehag]

the bounty's website and fb pages detailed the situation, step by step,as was reported to them. was easy to follow during th e entire situation.
is always easier to invent a scenario once the deed is done, but is difficult to seek the original source of the details. kinda like asking directions on a trip once lost in woods, i guess...must be a total guy thing....

 

[anchorclanker]

Reading some other forums it would appear we are much more polite and forgiving than some.

http://gcaptain.com/forum/professional-mariner-forum/10134-hms-bounty-hurricane-sandy.html

 

[Joe]

Reading some other forums it would appear we are much more polite and forgiving than some.

http://gcaptain.com/forum/professional-mariner-forum/10134-hms-bounty-hurricane-sandy.html

Well. AC, we are that at least.

 

[Shoaldrafter]

comments on Bounty

I received the following email which is self explanatory. I had emailed him the wooden boat thread url and this:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Thanks Ed, very insightful. this past Memorial Day weekend the Bounty was here in Greenport for a Tall Ship rendezvous. I met the captain and worked with him while they were in port. Very sad and unfortunate. He was a nice guy."[/FONT]

---------------------------------- // ---------------------------------------
The Greenport for those who do not know, is Greenport, New York. The home of Hooligan Navy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puQfSfuewE4;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgKTckJAf9o;


Ed K

 

[anchorclanker]

USCG has called off search for Walbridge.

 

[dugout]

After reading all the comments and all the opinions and reviewing the conditions on a time line I have come to the following conclusion.

I feel Captain Walbridge didn't believe the models which had the storm turning NW and W. I feel he believed the models which had the storm following the stereo typical NE/E path.

The two nagging questions in my mind:
Why didn't he initially east more than he did?
Why would he feel more secure west of the storm in the stream?

 

[Captandrew]

The two nagging questions in my mind:
Why didn't he initially east more than he did?
Why would he feel more secure west of the storm in the stream?

A tropical system has 2 sides (for this purpose at least) The dangerous and the navigable sides. Due to the rotation of the storm the "navigable side is that to the left of the direction of travel of the system in this case the east or SE. This side will have lower wind speeds and will also tend to move the vessel out of rather than into the path of the storm. Also the winds on this side can be taken on the quarter to allow a broad reach away from the center. All in all he was following traditional wisdom and it was also the direction he wanted to travel.
Yes the stream exists there but it is not so strong. The main thrust of the Gulf Stream is 40- 50 miles inshore of his position.

 

[dugout]

A tropical system has 2 sides (for this purpose at least) The dangerous and the navigable sides. Due to the rotation of the storm the "navigable side is that to the left of the direction of travel of the system in this case the east or SE. This side will have lower wind speeds and will also tend to move the vessel out of rather than into the path of the storm. Also the winds on this side can be taken on the quarter to allow a broad reach away from the center. All in all he was following traditional wisdom and it was also the direction he wanted to travel.
Yes the stream exists there but it is not so strong. The main thrust of the Gulf Stream is 40- 50 miles inshore of his position.

I understand what you are saying but this is my backyard. I have crossed the stream many times out of the Chesapeake, often to negotiate diamond shoal on a southerly route. To me, that region trumps any assumption of being the better of two evils, weak-side, strong-side, of a tropical cyclone. North winds and the Labrador current meeting the gulf stream any place near N35 and W075 can be hell. The last position was N34 and W074 and this is SE of where their troubles began. The plausible logic of why and when fails me.

 

[Roger Long]

To me, that region trumps any assumption of being the better of two evils, weak-side, strong-side, of a tropical cyclone.

You and just about any other knowledgeable person. They don't call it the "Graveyard of the Atlantic" for nothing. It's deadly in storms that don't even make the news on shore.

It's been posted that he appeared to be doing a very good job of skirting the storm and staying in the safest region for that route. Maybe so. But...

Say you come home and find the neighbor's boy skateboarding between two opposing lanes of traffic on a fast two lane road. Your son or daughter is riding piggyback on his shoulders. Do you say, "Oh, he's doing a very good job." If a wheel comes off and they go under a bus, do you say, "Well, he was doing a very competent job of it until he had a problem."?

 

[Stu Jackson]

A tropical system has 2 sides (for this purpose at least) The dangerous and the navigable sides. Due to the rotation of the storm the "navigable side is that to the left of the direction of travel of the system in this case the east or SE. This side will have lower wind speeds and will also tend to move the vessel out of rather than into the path of the storm. Also the winds on this side can be taken on the quarter to allow a broad reach away from the center. All in all he was following traditional wisdom and it was also the direction he wanted to travel.
Yes the stream exists there but it is not so strong. The main thrust of the Gulf Stream is 40- 50 miles inshore of his position.

Not sure I follow the "sides" you describe. Low pressure is counterclockwise. Storm was moving north or NW at 15 to 30 MPH.

Wouldn't the WEST side be safer (notwithstanding the currents)?

 

[catsailor]

I find myself thinking it was romance that caused the sinking. Someone described the crew (cast) as nautical thespians, and I think there is a grain of truth there. We all sail, in some part, for the romance of it, but we keep track of reality.

The boat sank because she took on water. The pumps failed because the generator failed. So much for historic romance. No manual back-up? Not enough crew to power said manual system? Did they continue relying on generator driven pumps even when it became clear that a pump failure would be fatal? In my expereince, if you have a leak you cannot EASILY manage with manual pumps you need to be looking for a port (assuming fixing the leak is not possible). But they didn't have enough crew and carpenters to fix the leak. Perhaps the original bounty would have.

Survival suits. Not too authentic. Modern means of summoning a helicopter? If his voyage had been authentic, she would have gone down with all hands and not have been known missing for days. Again, reliance placed on the modern. Just a little further out or in worse weather it would have been far worse.

___________

It strikes me that he sailed her as though she was 10 years old, sailed by a FULL crew (the original Bounty had 44 at the time of the mutiny and was a smaller ship) of sailors experienced on a vessel of the type, on a voyage of national importance. In fact, it was a movie prop on a routine delivery being sailed by a skeleton crew of small boat (relatively) sailors of variable expereince. You can't accept the romance and undervalue time-honored standards. And even with all of the precautions of the day, she might have sunk; any captain of the day, faced with the situation as we know it, an unimportant trip, and the forecast we had would have waited for a change in the weather, as they often did.

 

[anchorclanker]

Some of you guys keep sayng movie prop. I think that gives a great diservice to her. She was much older that most ships from her era would have hoped to have lasted. That in itself means she was built very well. She made at least two circumnavigations, and visted europe repeatedly.

But she wasnt so well maintained. she was leaking profusely just sitting at the dock in calm water, needing to be pumped every hour. By other accounts, her electrical system was horrific, her pumps were continually plugging and stopping, her generators were troublesome, her engines were as old as she and also troublesome, she had a lot of problems.

Now lets put Captain Hurricane at her helm and head for the SE quarter of a monster Hurricane and see how close we can get to the eye? And brag how calm and fun it will be?

For added effect, he want to push her through the gulf stream head on through the outer banks, arguably some of the most dangerous water in the world.

I think she performed pretty damn well for her final act.

That is NOT how you treat a well construsted replica of a long lost historic vessel. She should have been treated with much greater respect, kid gloves if you will, not pounded head on into a raging Hurricane against the Gulf Stream, "for the fun of it".

 

[Captandrew]

My earlier comment was just answering a question. No more no less. I am not defending the captain or any other person involved.
I am a professional captain and have sailed that route maybe 25 or 30 times, including both paid and pleasure trips. I am well aware of the conditions, reputation etc. I have also sailed closer than I wanted to be to a Hurricane, though not as big as this, and the positioning DOES work. It is still damned uncomfortable and wet but it is possible to get past if you have no choice. This I believe is the difference. He HAD a choice.