From the Wooden Boat Forum:
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?154940-Perspective&p=3579923#post3579923
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?154940-Perspective&p=3579923#post3579923
Some Thoughts on the "Bounty" Sinking.
- Thread starter Roger Long
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I find it of interest to read of Capt Bligh. His behavior on the one journey that led to this ships reconstruction, is not at all the behavior he showed in prior, or later positions. On the Mutiny voyage he seemed to be very irrational and condescending, conduct unbecoming. That may be a characteristic we all share from time to time, for better or worse.
A major part of the problem at hand, is that those of us commenting and reading about this are having strong emotional reactions to it. I know my feelings are scrambled, going from deep sadness to deep anger, and I know others are having the same issues. As Spock would state, I am emotionally compromised, and as such am not capable of making real clear observations.
But there are questions we want, need answers to, and as hard as it will be, they will have to wait. The survivors will need time to recover before they can be debriefed. Over time their stories will likely change. And some things we may never know. It is very unlikely the Capt will be found alive after all this time, and therefore we will likely never know why he made the decision to to butt heads with Sandy. Will the ship may be raised for salvage and investigation? And if so, would it reveal anything as to why she took on water?
Were all just going to have to relax and wait, as hard as thats going to be, and it might take a very long time before we know much more than we know today, if anything.
I for one apologize for any negative things ive said about the Capt. I will try to heed my own advice in waiting for more formal answers.
And I thank you as well Roger, for your careful and sober response.
A major part of the problem at hand, is that those of us commenting and reading about this are having strong emotional reactions to it. I know my feelings are scrambled, going from deep sadness to deep anger, and I know others are having the same issues. As Spock would state, I am emotionally compromised, and as such am not capable of making real clear observations.
But there are questions we want, need answers to, and as hard as it will be, they will have to wait. The survivors will need time to recover before they can be debriefed. Over time their stories will likely change. And some things we may never know. It is very unlikely the Capt will be found alive after all this time, and therefore we will likely never know why he made the decision to to butt heads with Sandy. Will the ship may be raised for salvage and investigation? And if so, would it reveal anything as to why she took on water?
Were all just going to have to relax and wait, as hard as thats going to be, and it might take a very long time before we know much more than we know today, if anything.
I for one apologize for any negative things ive said about the Capt. I will try to heed my own advice in waiting for more formal answers.
And I thank you as well Roger, for your careful and sober response.
I found this on the HMS Bounty Facebook page and was posted by the HMS Bounty on Oct 27th. I have not edited or altered the quote..
"Bounty's current voyage is a calculated decision...NOT AT ALL... irresponsible or with a lack of foresight as some have suggested.
The fact of the matter is...
A SHIP IS SAFER AT SEA THAN IN PORT!"
"Bounty's current voyage is a calculated decision...NOT AT ALL... irresponsible or with a lack of foresight as some have suggested.
The fact of the matter is...
A SHIP IS SAFER AT SEA THAN IN PORT!"
"Bounty's current voyage is a calculated decision...NOT AT ALL... irresponsible or with a lack of foresight as some have suggested.
The fact of the matter is...
A SHIP IS SAFER AT SEA THAN IN PORT!"[/quote]
This statement may be true for a large modern steel ship capable of making 20+kts when underway, (in any direction).
For a wooden sailing ship, ala HMS Bounty, I believe that the record from both the age of sail, as well as up to today, shows that when even large wooden sailing ships encountered hurricane conditions, most did not survive.
As the lawyers (may well) say ... res ipsa loquitur
As Rodger said, it's inexplicable that any captain would unnecessarily take his iconic, 50 year old, sailing ship out into hurricane conditions. IMHO, it was, in fact, irresponsible.
How would the ship have done in port? How has the USS Constitution handled similar conditions over the last 236 years while at dock? Even and damages? There are other tall ships along the east coast, some in the Chesapeake, did they fair well?
Leaving port
It's not even so much that he left port, as the direction he headed when he did. The suggestion on the WB forum is that he was trying to make a deadline for Bounty's appearance in St. Pete that had already been promoted. As Roger said, it's incomprehensible.
It's not even so much that he left port, as the direction he headed when he did. The suggestion on the WB forum is that he was trying to make a deadline for Bounty's appearance in St. Pete that had already been promoted. As Roger said, it's incomprehensible.
Army Flight School Mantra..
There are old pilots.
There are bold pilots.
There are no OLD, BOLD pilots.
And my favorite...
"There I was, running out of altitude, airspeed, and experience."
We all make mistakes. Some we see in hindsight, some we are able to alter just enought to avoid severe consequences. In a few instances, doing everything right, or doing everything wrong, simply does not matter. The hand of fate, and the will of God determine the outcome.
Years ago, I watched a man who had parachuted hundreds of time collide with a young soldier who had less than ten jumps. Experience could not save the former...inexperience did not cause the death of the latter.
In any case...
"The Death of Any Man Diminishes Me."
There are old pilots.
There are bold pilots.
There are no OLD, BOLD pilots.
And my favorite...
"There I was, running out of altitude, airspeed, and experience."
We all make mistakes. Some we see in hindsight, some we are able to alter just enought to avoid severe consequences. In a few instances, doing everything right, or doing everything wrong, simply does not matter. The hand of fate, and the will of God determine the outcome.
Years ago, I watched a man who had parachuted hundreds of time collide with a young soldier who had less than ten jumps. Experience could not save the former...inexperience did not cause the death of the latter.
In any case...
"The Death of Any Man Diminishes Me."
I can't get beyond the simple irresponsible decision.
Many aboard including the one dead young woman, were kids looking for instruction and adventure. That alone adds even more responsibility for those in charge. Those kids were likely the most capable crew you could find, but they also can be more vulnerable to accepting poor choices from those in charge. They're looking to leaders to make correct decisions and they, and their loved ones, are trusting the leaders to do so.
So I don't even get to the "sea" part. The conditions were well posted long in advance, the state of the vessel well known to the captain. What was the responsible thing to do, as the person in charge, under the circumstances?
This is as simple to me as a bus driver with a load of students, deciding to head down a long winding mountain road despite well forecast conditions of black ice along the way. He may think he knows the road and his bus, he may have a schedule, but what is the responsible thing to do, as the person in charge, under those circumstances?
I hope they find him alive, I'm not here to demonize him because he made a poor decision.
Many aboard including the one dead young woman, were kids looking for instruction and adventure. That alone adds even more responsibility for those in charge. Those kids were likely the most capable crew you could find, but they also can be more vulnerable to accepting poor choices from those in charge. They're looking to leaders to make correct decisions and they, and their loved ones, are trusting the leaders to do so.
So I don't even get to the "sea" part. The conditions were well posted long in advance, the state of the vessel well known to the captain. What was the responsible thing to do, as the person in charge, under the circumstances?
This is as simple to me as a bus driver with a load of students, deciding to head down a long winding mountain road despite well forecast conditions of black ice along the way. He may think he knows the road and his bus, he may have a schedule, but what is the responsible thing to do, as the person in charge, under those circumstances?
I hope they find him alive, I'm not here to demonize him because he made a poor decision.
Roger,
Since they went down somewhat near to my home port, although closer to the center of the storm, the winds were out of the north or north east during this time. That would suggest that they were running downwind. Having run downwind in a much milder storm in the Atlantic I have some idea of how a small boat behaves, I am not so sure of what a large square rigger would be like surfing down waves. Can you give us any insight into what that would be like? Would the bow tend to bury itself in the next wave and risk pitchpoling? Would the stern lift exposing the rudder and cause loss of steerage? Would a drogue work or is the vessel too large for that kind of tactic? I'm sure more info will come out but I was hoping your knowledge of vessels could provide some insight?
Thanks,
Dave
Since they went down somewhat near to my home port, although closer to the center of the storm, the winds were out of the north or north east during this time. That would suggest that they were running downwind. Having run downwind in a much milder storm in the Atlantic I have some idea of how a small boat behaves, I am not so sure of what a large square rigger would be like surfing down waves. Can you give us any insight into what that would be like? Would the bow tend to bury itself in the next wave and risk pitchpoling? Would the stern lift exposing the rudder and cause loss of steerage? Would a drogue work or is the vessel too large for that kind of tactic? I'm sure more info will come out but I was hoping your knowledge of vessels could provide some insight?
Thanks,
Dave
Nice post, Roger.
From the FB posts it looks like they had a new fuel tank put in while they were in dry dock. I suppose we'll never know for sure, but I wonder if there was crap in there that clogged the filters/lines and took out the engine(s). As you said, one small failure that leads to a sad and catastrophic end.
From the FB posts it looks like they had a new fuel tank put in while they were in dry dock. I suppose we'll never know for sure, but I wonder if there was crap in there that clogged the filters/lines and took out the engine(s). As you said, one small failure that leads to a sad and catastrophic end.
Thank you. I saw they have training programs on their website so I assumed there were some younger people on board.
I get the feeling as seamless as this rescue was, despite the losses, it could have even been worse than it is.
there are information bits on the bounty fb and websites. if you need to know, why not go there. all appropriate questions were answered there.
i think is time to pay respect to those who died and to the ship that also died due to lack of functional generator. look it up on their sites, and
RIP
bounty
claudene christian
captain robin.
by the way--they were NOT in the hurricane . they were between the storm front coming to join the hurricane and sandy , 180 miles nw of the eye, well out of the cone of death. this , also, is well documented on their sites, by use of maps and tracking. was fascinating to see how capt robin was dealing with the hurrycame, as he skirted it, and the cold front, wherefrom the prefrontal winds came that he was riding. was interesting to see the path and how he was in between storms.
you guys should go read the website and the fb pages so you also can see what he was doing. was fascinating.
i think is time to pay respect to those who died and to the ship that also died due to lack of functional generator. look it up on their sites, and
RIP
bounty
claudene christian
captain robin.
by the way--they were NOT in the hurricane . they were between the storm front coming to join the hurricane and sandy , 180 miles nw of the eye, well out of the cone of death. this , also, is well documented on their sites, by use of maps and tracking. was fascinating to see how capt robin was dealing with the hurrycame, as he skirted it, and the cold front, wherefrom the prefrontal winds came that he was riding. was interesting to see the path and how he was in between storms.
you guys should go read the website and the fb pages so you also can see what he was doing. was fascinating.
Check your facts before you speculate...... that's the responsible thing to do.
The pictures of the Bounty while sinking suggest that it didn't pitchpole. It seems more likely to my inexpert opinion that it was taking on water and didn't have the pumping necessary to keep it afloat. In other words the reports are basically on the mark. Sometimes what it is, is just what it is. It sank in a storm.
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