Riparian rights and Moorings

rpwillia · May 28, 2013

+1

AWalker said:
... put one in front of is folks place with a garbage barge on it.

:+1:

tommays · May 28, 2013

The kid who has done this claims that "You don't own the water so I can do as I please as long as it is further from shore than the length of your dock" so he is refusing to move it. So far, he has not used this mooring for his own boat, but rather allows his buddys to and then party all night.

I would think the party all night would attract the local LEO ??

A possible rebuttal to this interpretation may be formed using a simple ontology:
1) The waterway belongs to the public. No individual may take any portion of the waterway for private use.
2) A person who owns land on the waterway may install docks within the confines of his shoreline boundaries extended into the waterway.
Proposition (2) is an exception to Proposition (1). And, if we agree these propositions are "true" we can test other ideas against them.

Q. What are the rights of an adjacent landowner regarding placement of docks in front of my property?
A. The same rights as the public: None. The adjacent landowner enjoys an exception to Proposition (1) that has force ONLY in front of his own property.

Q. How far into the waterway does my exclusive right to install docks extend?
A. Until your rights collide with the (equal) rights of the riparian owner on the opposite bank: In the middle of the waterway.

Q. Does this mean I can build docks out to the middle of the waterway?
A. No. The law only creates an exclusion zone where nobody else can install docks. What YOU can build is further constrained by rules regarding obstruction of navigation, reasonableness, and so forth.

One of the ways this interpretation serves the public interest is that it avoids the problem of a "lawless" space in the waterway where a person might install a structure and claim that nobody has sufficient standing to require its removal. This was the outcome in Zapffe, and forms perhaps the most glaring shortcoming of this case.

It is very confusing up here as on the south shore of the island moorings are pretty rare and it is all docks and the north shore has a massive amount of moorings and docks

To add to the confusion the areas of bottom controled by colonial law changes randomly from town to town

shemandr · May 28, 2013

Some of the bottom rights and other rights on the East End of LI go back to King James. They have survived legally through the Revolutionary War and another 300 years. The courts have generally recognized those rights. It's very complicated. The town has tried to exert control but when they have some ancestor comes forward and says "Not so fast!" In general so far as I have seen the town has to back down.
With regard to mooring fields, Cormorants have cleared mooring fields far more effectively than the town.

RichH · May 28, 2013

Andrew, youre NOT suggesting that Witz begin to feed and attract cormorants to boats mooring at his place, are you?????
I would also not suggest to add dead crabs and eels, road killed skunk carcasses and other 'offal' onto those boat decks that which would also attract gulls, vultures, other 'dirty' birds, racoons, biting flies, etc. No, I wouldnt do that !!!!!! ..... at least not during daylight hours.

KingAirDriver · May 28, 2013

I wonder why the heck everyone wants to be all politically correct about this.

I would go to the parents house and raise holy he!!. Since when do punk a$$ kids get to push around hard working adults?

Enough is enough already. Punk decided to call you out. Return the favor. Go see the parents with your lawyer in tow.

Next time there is a party, call the police and complain about the noise, suspected drug use, and underage drinking. I know that you must have seen drug paraphernalia and alcohol use by the occupants of the boat, and it will be up to them to prove otherwise when the police get there to investigate.

I always hate it when I fish off my dock, and when I cast, the shrimp I am using for bait flies off the hook and lands on the boat across the canal from me. Brings all sorts of nasty issues, the smell, the birds...terrible I tell ya...

Time to fight fire with water balloon launchers and potato cannons! LOL

Chef2sail · May 29, 2013

So I guess because you have enough money to buy a house on the water, you want to be able to extend you reach into the water itself. You want to prevent people from mooring, what's the next step, anchoring? You won't let people anchor. So you think you control to the middle of the river? How about a larger body of water, say the Sassafrass close to you. Do the property owners control or own to the middle of the river. Laughable. That's the purpose of riparian rights. How does his mooring block your view? Laughable again.

If some property blowhard got irate because I anchored 75 ft off his dock and confronted me, I would say the same thing to you he did. Just because he us younger doesn't give you more rights either. If I were his parents I would tell you the same thing.

Interesting its ok for you to build an expensive dock into the public waterway not owned by you (raparian) , but no one else can use the public waterway be wise it blocks your view.

If he violates noise ordinances trashes the waters have the LEO visit him, but it sounds like you are looking for any reason to evict him, because he wants the same view you paid big bucks for.

If you resort to destroying his property as some have childishly advocated, which is illegal you as an adult will be responsible for escallating the situation and should expect your property to be destroyed in kind.

To me you sound out of bounds here. Just deal with the mooring. Myp god its 75 ft away. The noise or trash is however deal with like the rest of us, first a conversation then the police. I am afraid the conversation stage probably already is poisoned.

Roger Long · May 29, 2013

shemandr said:
Some of the bottom rights and other rights on the East End of LI go back to King James.

I became a harbormaster after my predecessor had retired but neglected to tell the town that he had for about ten years. The mooring situation was a mess. When people found out that there was going to be a real harbormaster, many people had an "Obama is going to take your guns.", kind of moment.

I got letters from a few people enclosing copies of their deeds which included wording, going back to the first recorded deed in some cases, saying that they had the right to put a mooring in the cove in front of their house.

I told them that I used to live in a house on Beacon Hill in Boston for which the deed provided that I had the right to graze cattle on Boston Common but that I had never seen any cows there. Things change and they would have to apply, register, and pay like everyone else.

Ron20324 · May 29, 2013

Cut to the chase: contact the governing agency. Your 1) "I believe" tells me you do not know what you are talking about- legally. Our marina totally rebuilt recently, and we had to deal with the "harbor line", which is how far into the water we can construct. It is a maximum of 75 feet, but is not the same all along the marina, as it does border Back Creek. Otherwise, contact a maritime lawyer before you take the law into your own hands anc damage his property.. Semmes, Bowen and Semmes i see works out of Baltimore.

Bob J. · May 29, 2013

When I saw this yesterday, I had a wtf moment. I understand your frustration but you've become afflicted with the Florida syndrome.
I'm against what's happening down there, aren't you?

I pretty much agree with Chef2sail on this one.

thinwater · May 29, 2013

No, he does not appear to have good sense. I imagine the exact location of that mooring is going to be variable!

What is an "approved mooring?" I don't think Maryland has a definition. Certainly a chunk of concrete can serve, just not THAT hunk.

Anytime we share the use of public property there is the potential for conflict. I don't think anyone on this board suggested you individually would stoop to vandalism, though some certainly promoted it. On the other hand, I think many have seen previously lovey anchorages ruined to for overnight use by the sprawl of private moorings and docks, and thus find themselves fundamentally unsympathetic to any assertion of exclusive right to use of a public resource. You can have your dock, but but don't expect a 200 foot buffer. Yes, I've had landowners bother me, that I have anchored too close to their dock for their comfort. I'm polite but unmoved. If I thought dragging was concern, I would be responsible for that. I don't like anchoring close to docks, but sometimes that's what is available, when the docks reach right out to the channel edge.

Brian D · May 29, 2013

Buy a small boat and put it on the mooring. Or, ask one of your boating friends to tie up there. Is not the the mooring in public waters (so to speak)? Kind of like the curb in front of my house. Anyone can park there and I have no recourse.

If he says it is his, ask for proof like title or papers. Otherwise, it is public domain.

Just a thought.

Bob J. · May 29, 2013

We had a family lakefront home on Long Pond up in Maine. My mother in law used to get so bent out of shape when people would fish close to shore or toss plastic under the dock. She felt like her "rights" were being violated. I've spent the majority of my life fishing & have felt the eyes on me when fishing close to shore or tossing plastic under the dock.

You feel violated & I get that. You are in a tough place but this isn't worth the frustration & no matter how this shakes out, you'll get no joy out of this..

Merlin Clark · May 29, 2013

We have a saying "arguing with an EOD is like wrestling with a pig- everyone gets dirty and the pig likes it".
Most people here would understand your position if they experienced the problem. You work hard and pay a wad of money (and loads of taxes) for a place on the water and some turd plops a POS right in the middle of your sight picture.
Good luck.

rpwillia · May 29, 2013

The Mooring

The choice of this guys mooring material is a bit of an accident waiting to happen. Concrete loses a considerable amount of it's weight in the water and that was a pretty small piece of concrete in the first place. I think a blow like we had last weekend would have sent that boat somewhere unpleasant.

While I get the response of some of the posters here about rights and all that I wonder how they would feel about some kid partying right off of their dock all night. I have had neighbors that had done some pretty wild things like party all night with loud music and then complain at 11 am when I cut my grass and wake them up from their drunken stupor, or raise a bunch of chickens who make noise all day and night, or the one who was raising 21 hogs (at least one was 400 lbs) in a small pen.

If he had asked nicely I suspect Tom would have been a bit more understanding, but his approach bordered on the F U variety.

BTW, Here is an overhead of the Elk River and it is not all that big, not tiny, but not big.

Riparian rights and Moorings

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