Riparian rights and Moorings

tommays · May 30, 2013

One of the community home owner's kids has placed a mooring ~75 directly off the end of my dock. Can he legally do this?

Its is 75 feet out past the dock with NO reference to how far out the dock goes

A question has been asked that nobody can answer BUT i would sure start with the HOA rules

My boat in reality is much closer to the dock than Google earth shows which is a BIG AZZ dock and there are 1000 moorings in this area and yes that is REAL VANDERBILT MANSION its the gold coast

(a) Huntington Harbor. Beginning on the shoreline at latitude 40°54'19.5", longitude 73°26'07.9"; thence to latitude 40°54'19.5", longitude 73°26'02.4"; thence along the eastern shoreline to the Mill Dam Road Bridge; thence along the downstream side of the bridge to the westerly side of Huntington Harbor; thence along the western shoreline to the point of beginning.

(a–1) Centerport Harbor. Beginning at the shoreline at latitude 40°54'00", longitude 73°22'55.3"; thence to latitude 40°54'03.8", longitude 73°22'52.1"; thence along the eastern shoreline to the Mill Dam Bridge; thence along the downstream side of the bridge to the westerly side of Centerport Harbor; thence along the western shoreline to the point of beginning.

(a–2) Northport Harbor. Beginning on the shoreline at latitude 40°54'25", longitude 73°22'05"; thence to latitude 40°54'37.5", longitude 73°21'32.9"; thence along the eastern shoreline to latitude 40°53'33.1", longitude 72°21'28.2"; thence to latitude 40°53'25.8", longitude 73°21'37.7"; thence along the shoreline to the point of beginning.

Note: The areas designated by paragraphs (a), (a–1), and (a–2) of this section are principally for vessels used for a recreational purpose. A vessel shall be anchored so that no part of the vessel comes within 50 feet of the marked channel. A temporary float or buoy for marking the location of the anchor of a vessel at anchor may be used. Fixed mooring piles or stakes are prohibited.

The entire Long Island Sound both the NY and CT sides would be devoid of boats if everybody controlled the water 1/2 way across

KingAirDriver · May 30, 2013

So Charles, what is this obvious solution then?

And since when do 200 years of law and history keep someone from being a jerk?

So what would YOU do Charles? What is YOUR strategy?

You say it is obvious, well, spill it then.

And to call me personal names, when all we are having here is a lively debate, well, that is just childish. King Air Crasher? Really?

thinwater · May 30, 2013

tommays said:
One of the community home owner's kids has placed a mooring ~75 directly off the end of my dock. Can he legally do this?

Its is 75 feet out past the dock with NO reference to how far out the dock goes

A question has been asked that nobody can answer BUT i would sure start with the HOA rules

The question was answered in the 1st (follow the OP's link) and 7th post. The HOA has no bearing as it is not their property and MD does not require permits for individual moorings. It is far enough out that (presumably since the OP did not say) far enough away that it does not block his access to his dock. This is simply about inconsiderate behavior.

Charles Erwin · May 30, 2013

King Air requested.

"You say it is obvious, well, spill it then"

Sure - no problem.

Verify applicable law. Start with applicable HOA restrictions and covenants, then consult state statute, then state regulation then - assuming the waterway is navigable - verify applicable navigable waters' rules.

If this research favors your objective - bargain with the (now well researched) threat of the unpleasant consequences you intend to visit upon the opponent unless they are willing to give way.

If this research does not favor your objective then one must bargain - and under those circumstances that strategy must be particularly well considered since one has no legal support. By the way, if this is the situation - there has been more than one comment which is worth considering - including your own illustration of possibly productive discourse with the opponent.

The important aspect here is to understand whether one's own annoyance with the situation is simply personal or whether one's annoyance is underpinned by the opponent's disobedience to covenant, rule, statute, or common law - and in all cases whether the facts show an applicable rule of law or covenant has been been transgressed.

Verifying a rule exists is not so easy - most important is whether a rule you find applies. This is probably not an exercise in which us common folk are likely to succeed. Those who have dedicated their professional career to such questions are relatively inexpensive and very valuable - but this is so only as long as you consult talented counsel before a collision of wills develop.

Sorry 'bout getting your a.k.a. wrong old boy.

Charles

rpwillia · May 30, 2013

Chef2Sail

Chef2sail said:
Ross, just don't meander over to the Elk River which is close to you and where the OP owns an house and thinks he owns the river and anchorage.

Chef2Sail, Every one of your post indicates you have some kind of class issue (or is that lack of)? Witz simply vented, asked for opinions and got some responses that were serious and some that were not so serious. To be honest this is the first thing in the years I have been on SBO that I have ever seen you post anything and right out of the gate you sound like you are not playing with a full deck. Your post seem a little raw and personal and I find them insulting.

For the record I have met Witz and he is a good guy. From every one of your whiny, petty and holier than thou posts you seem to have some major problems. Why not go off and wipe your nose and go snivel somewhere else.

Charles Erwin · May 30, 2013

Whoa there my friend rpwillia-

The OP has received what he asked for - some of it is pretty good, some silly, all probably borne of good intentions. I have no doubt Witz can tell the difference.

However, unlike other folks' comments, your contribution is devoid of any useful advice to the OP. In other words - if you simply characterize other folks comments as petty - you manage to contribute nothing aimed at helping Witz to come up with a solution.

Charles

Chef2sail · May 30, 2013

rpwillia said:
Chef2Sail, Every one of your post indicates you have some kind of class issue (or is that lack of)? Witz simply vented, asked for opinions and got some responses that were serious and some that were not so serious. To be honest this is the first thing in the years I have been on SBO that I have ever seen you post anything and right out of the gate you sound like you are not playing with a full deck. Your post seem a little raw and personal and I find them insulting.

For the record I have met Witz and he is a good guy. From every one of your whiny, petty and holier than thou posts you seem to have some major problems. Why not go off and wipe your nose and go snivel somewhere else.

Very grown up my friend. Chill out. And you have the nerve to speak about class? Forget the meds this morning? Resorting to a personal attack in a thread not really appropriate. even though you need a talking to i will continue to take the high ground and not engage. besides i dont know street gutter. How about including something about the thread in you next post at least

Has nothing to do with a "class" issue with the OP. I will take your opinion that he is a good guy. not the issue here though. he wants to bully someone from anchoring or placing a mooring ball in front of his house, because it ruins his view. he feels he has purchased that view, all the way to the center of the river. Do I have it correct?. That's his self admitted statement. Sorry you don't agree with my assessment and opinion. It doesn't deserve you acrimonious attack.

He took it on himself to approach the young boater to dress him down and criticism him for his first mooring and was rebuffed. Maybe his approach was similar as it was here and the kid told him to mind his own business. You know it wasn't his business to say anything to him, but he did. Maybe he tried to bully the kid. Why didn't he talk to the kids parents to solve it? That would be logical. Maybe he did talk to them he hasn't said. W

The fact that its a young man who disrespected him even tweaked him more, but make no mistake about it, if I with a 35 ft C&C placed a 200 lb mooring mushroom 75 off his dock, he'd have the same issue. He thinks he can own or control public property and is looking for a way to do it. The police did not bite. The DNR didn't bite. The laws are not on his side. Simple fact.....indisputable.

If property owners could do what he wants to do thy will ruin all the anchorages many of us like to go to. Read what the other posters say about other areas. . The water is public domain in Maryland...aside from the riparian issues and navigable channels. Just deal with it. It insures that all people have access to it and no one can buy it or own it.

Dave

philwsailz · May 30, 2013

Ma'am excuse me...

Can I get a large popcorn and a jumbo Dr. Pepper please? Thank you!

Chef2sail · May 30, 2013

Witzend said:
Thanks for the support RP, no question a class act on and off the course!
The issue for me is that this kid is an in you face type, he has many options here, not like a crowded mooring field, or your looking for a one night place to drop a hook in a rather full anchorage. He chooses to be obnoxious. I will check with the county, but at first glance they are punting to DNR.
Nature will have her way, I just hope innocent victims are not involved. This bottom don't stick, like trying to anchor in marshmallow.

Yeah some class act. Your beef is a personal vendetta with the disrespectful kid. That's obvious. You said he is an "the in your face type," but it was you got in his face first according to you by getting in to his business with the community beach. He s just standing up to you. Obvious you aren't used to that.

The reasonable people, Law Enforcement don't want to get involved....because they think you wrong. They heard you , and like me don't agree with you. You don't have the law on your side. Yet you persist. And the puppy dog supports you. The MD law does not support your position, yet you persist. The disrespectful kid continues to win. He has gotten under your skin. Had you tried a different approach to bullying him which you continue to espouse by using your position as a landowner in the community and a adult with he police vs a partying kid, scenario, maybe he would have listened. The police who see all kinds did not agree with you. For that decision they get a comment from you too that thy are "punting to the DNR" YOU DO NOT OWN THE WATER......it's all of ours

I still don't understand why no mention of contacting the kids parents. I have to assume either you have and they told you to go away, or you feel that you can bully them.

Now you make a comment like nature will have its way like wish something happens to him. How childish. Who is the adult here Let me present another scenario you may not have thought of. He and his friends each put moorings which are really good ones off your house and dock with large mushroom anchors legally as an act of defiance to the bully. If I lived closed I'd put a mooring off your dock. The only way to deal with a bully is head on.

Ok all put the popcorn away.

Chef2sail · May 30, 2013

Charles Erwin said:
King Air requested.

"You say it is obvious, well, spill it then"

Sure - no problem.

Verify applicable law. Start with applicable HOA restrictions and covenants, then consult state statute, then state regulation then - assuming the waterway is navigable - verify applicable navigable waters' rules.

If this research favors your objective - bargain with the (now well researched) threat of the unpleasant consequences you intend to visit upon the opponent unless they are willing to give way.

If this research does not favor your objective then one must bargain - and under those circumstances that strategy must be particularly well considered since one has no legal support. By the way, if this is the situation - there has been more than one comment which is worth considering - including your own illustration of possibly productive discourse with the opponent.

The important aspect here is to understand whether one's own annoyance with the situation is simply personal or whether one's annoyance is underpinned by the opponent's disobedience to covenant, rule, statute, or common law - and in all cases whether the facts show an applicable rule of law or covenant has been been transgressed.

Verifying a rule exists is not so easy - most important is whether a rule you find applies. This is probably not an exercise in which us common folk are likely to succeed. Those who have dedicated their professional career to such questions are relatively inexpensive and very valuable - but this is so only as long as you consult talented counsel before a collision of wills develop.

Sorry 'bout getting your a.k.a. wrong old boy.

Charles

Great advice

RichH · May 30, 2013

Witz -
With all due respect to 'class envy of the proletariat', socialism, laws and land grants, etc. in other states, etc., there may be specific legal precedent that was 'recovered' just a few years ago in Kent County that may be of help to yourself and/or your counsel. The local court ruled a 'novel' arrangement/solution but based on pre-colonial property rights statutes plus some modern interpretations that eventually satisfied both involved parties ... the (new) landholder and the very long term moorings permit holder. To cut to the chase ... riparian rights eventually prevailed (quite astounding for the Socialist Peoples Republic of Maryland!!!). PM me if you want the names of the litigants so you or your counsel can do your own preliminary research of this seemingly precedent re-setting case ... will take me a few days to get you the 'case / docket number', etc.

Hint: for the past few years many of the moorings on the 'inside/headwaters' of Worton Cr. have been removed, and there is now a lot of anchored boats on weekends on the 'inner creek' (although the bottom is now moslty shoal due to siltation), there has been a large 'specially approved' expansion of dockage at one of the marinas there. Best of all, peace and quiet has returned to normal & typically 'neighborly' eastern shore, .... .

philwsailz · May 30, 2013

I am reserving judgement but in the volleys of vitriol, I think maybe two points have been awkwardly overlooked.

Witz has owned this property since 1970, well prior to the HOA coming into the neighborhood.

The HOA as a group is only a neighbor; Witz is not a member of the HOA.

To my mind it is kinda like having your dream place for a long time, only to find out that an HOA multi-family community is being built next door. HOA rules don't apply in this instance, not in front of Witz' place anyway.

I don't know the answer, and I again refrain from judgement.... Truths are usually found in the middle somewhere.... It's human nature to argue your personal case, so by proximity Witz' side might be biased. Without both side's input all replies are only conjecture; speculation.

I offer up the two points above just to help focus the discussion.... Time for another bucket of popcorn

philwsailz · May 30, 2013

And scotch.... We need scotch to go with that popcorn....

Douglast · May 30, 2013

wow...a thread that perfectly displays, split , divide , conquer without the catalyst even taking an active part...

I would have thought that a fellow member of this forum right or wrong, would not have had some barbed posts his way and any objections or less regard to his concerns would have been more polite and civil.

Obviously a lot of potential for mutiny on this site....lol...

RichH · May 30, 2013

philwsailz said:
And scotch.... We need scotch to go with that popcorn....

Popcorn and scots whiskey??? ....... laddie, yer kilt will fall off ye!
Single malt, neat; NO popcorn.
Besides, ye cant 'deep fry' popcorn!!!!!!!!

tommays · May 31, 2013

I like everybody here

BUT from my childhood growing up on Broadkill Beach In Delaware and seeing homeowners getting upset about somebody walking down the beach I am all out of tolerance about it

If you live on Long Island for long you will soon learn waterfront ownership even ocean is all about making it as difficult as possible to get near the water right down to fences well into the water

Brian D · May 31, 2013

My fellow boaters, please take a minute to step back from the keyboard. I do not want this to turn into a private battle between a couple of our members. I will ask for a cease fire and the next post that is directed at an individual will be deleted.

Please keep to the topic, and only the topic, at hand.

Now, back to OP... the regulation you linked tells me the mooring belongs to no one. Therefore, if you move it or remove it will bring no recourse back to you as there are no rights assigned to that mooring. It will cause some bad blood (if not already) between you and your neighbors. Next time he (or they) place the mooring there, make a video and make sure you can see their faces. If the mooring breaks free and damages your dock, you have proof it was they and they should be liable. But you must have proof, tangible evidence.

Ross · May 31, 2013

RichH said:
Popcorn and scots whiskey??? ....... laddie, yer kilt will fall off ye!

Besides, ye cant 'deep fry' popcorn!!!!!!!!

Ahh, But you can deep fry popcorn. When next you have a kettle of hot grease drop a small handful of kernels in and watch them pop and float up to the top.