Right of way question

Davidasailor26 · Jun 13, 2016

@gettinthere - if you're still around, does this sketch look something like the situation you were in? (Forgive the rough iPad sketch)

To the rest of the group - what would you do as boat A in this situation, given that you were down speed, but the approach angle was just more than the "overtaking" threshold?

My guess is that it would be possible for boat A to turn down slightly and scrub speed to tuck behind B, but that trying that would take confidence in judging speed and distance that only comes with experience.

Newport Bob · Jun 13, 2016

OK I will start by admitting this is slightly off topic. But, must add thanks for the info provided by all.
Years ago, I crewed on an Ensign for local evening round the bouys races. One evening after the race we were heading back to the harbor, for after race libations at the club, heading to weather with the big genny, healed, all crew on high side rail talking about the race. All of a sudden there was a loud sound and the boat jumped to weather. ????
Almost immediately a VERY large bell bouy came bouncing and clanging from behind the genny --- showed us , and told us, it had RIGHT OF WAY even tho we were on stbd.

BayMan · Jun 13, 2016

We are all describing the same rules for which boat can keep doing what is doing and which must change. We even all agree on the differences to what the boats can and cant do when racing vs when cruising. What we have a mild dispute about is how we refer to those rules. By the official name- Collregs, or by the common name Right of Way. Either way is fine but, IMO, more sailors will know it by ROW

sesmith · Jun 13, 2016

Jackdaw hit the semantics on the head. Right of way implies that you have the right to do whatever you want, and the other boat must avoid you. The stand on boat does not have that right. It must stay on course, so the other boat can know what it is doing, and make course changes to avoid the collision. Of course, the stand on boat must leave enough time for a course change, if necessary, to avoid a collision.

For the OP, (if he's still here), the rest of the rules are really pretty simple. You're either on the same or different tacks. If on the same tack, one boat is closer to the wind than the other (unless you're following each other across the wind). So, if you are the give way vessel, you have to make a course change, whatever it takes, to avoid the collision.

That said, I'm usually aware of what's going on around me (I said usually

). If I see a boat coming down wind toward me with what could be a tricky sailing situation, (picture someone trying to maintain wing on wing) I have no problem moving out of their way well in advance of any close call situation. That's just common courtesy, but I don't expect it when I'm the give way vessel.

Stu Jackson · Jun 13, 2016

BayMan said:
Either way is fine but, IMO, more sailors will know it by ROW

And they'd still be wrong.

You still seem to fail to understand this, said so well:

sesmith said:
Right of way implies that you have the right to do whatever you want, and the other boat must avoid you. The stand on boat does not have that right. It must stay on course, so the other boat can know what it is doing, and make course changes to avoid the collision.

Gunni · Jun 13, 2016

We haven't even gotten to power Vessels Constrained by Draft or Restricted in the Ability Maneuver! Need a prime directive: If you don't know the Navigation Rules keep a careful watch and stay out of everyone's way.

sesmith · Jun 13, 2016

Gunni said:
We haven't even gotten to power Vessels Constrained by Draft or Restricted in the Ability Maneuver!

Probably shouldn't go there...5 pages already on 2 sailboats crossing

jeepbluetj · Jun 13, 2016

I'm not of the "don't worry about colregs, just stay out of everybody's way" school of thought. Why? Cause if another boat is stand on, and I'm give way, I'm gonna give way. And I really expect them to stand on. Not turn right at me after I've made the obvious 20 degree turn to give way. Happens a lot.

My other personal rule is that it's just best to ignore jetskis. Haven't met one yet that knew the rules. Oh, and I could rant for hours about paddleboarders in the middle of the marina channel.

BayMan · Jun 14, 2016

Stu Jackson said:
And they'd still be wrong.

You still seem to fail to understand this, said so well:
sesmith said: ↑
Right of way implies that you have the right to do whatever you want, and the other boat must avoid you. The stand on boat does not have that right. It must stay on course, so the other boat can know what it is doing, and make course changes to avoid the collision.

No I understand completely and if one were to look at my several posts on this thread you can see that I am accurately describing the actual rules. My point is simply this: If I am discussing a situation (just the like original OP did on this thread) and introduce it by calling it ROW, everyone knows what the topic is. If instead I say, let me ask you a COLREGS question, they will not know what I am talking about. I get your effort to make us all call the rules by their official name but I think you are fighting the tide, so to speak. More power to you, though. But I disagree that calling it ROW changes the effect of the rules. That would only be true of someone who does not know the rules.
Enough said on this. Bayman out.

Siamese · Jun 14, 2016

jeepbluetj said:
I'm not of the "don't worry about colregs, just stay out of everybody's way" school of thought. Why? Cause if another boat is stand on, and I'm give way, I'm gonna give way. And I really expect them to stand on. Not turn right at me after I've made the obvious 20 degree turn to give way. Happens a lot.

Good post...good point. And it's a point that the "I won't learn the rules, I'll just stay out of everyone's way" people need to understand. Yeah, it drives you nuts when you give way to a stand on vessel only to have it turn and put both boats in peril again.

The rules and terminology are simple, and it doesn't take long to learn them. The U.S. tax code is an incomprehensible mess, but the COLREGS are elegant, fair, and worth embracing.

sesmith · Jun 14, 2016

Not to beat a dead horse....but here's where ROW causes confusion. Most people relate ROW to driving a car. If 2 cars show up to a 4-way intersection at the same time, the one to the right goes first. The other car stops and waits, while the other car goes straight, turns, or whatever he has in mind. Same is true with 2 cars approaching each other on a road. If one car wants to turn across the road, he stops and waits for the other car (who has the ROW) to go first. That car might be going straight, turning into a business, driveway etc...or just stopped in the road.

Boats don't stop! If they did, maybe right of way rules would work. This is why using ROW terminology causes more confusion than it solves when it is used in boating.

Warren Milberg · Jun 14, 2016

The first and, to me, primary rule of boating is to avoid a collision. You will never be wrong, wind up with a dented boat, or cause injury on the water. If you wait for the other guy to "to the right thing," you are cutting your reaction time and distance in the process.
As but one of a number of examples, a few years ago I was under sail in a crossing situation with a 45-ft power boat. I was clearly the "stand-on vessel," The power boat was doing at least 25-kts. At about a quarter mile away, I turned my boat to a parallel course with the power boat. When he passed me, I noted no one was at the helm. He was on autopilot. The autopilot didn't have a clue about the Colregs. Out of pique, I blew my horn 5 times. A short time later, a man and a woman emerged from below and looked around wondering what the fuss was. Stuff happens out there....

Maine Sail · Jun 14, 2016

BayMan said:
But I disagree that calling it ROW changes the effect of the rules. That would only be true of someone who does not know the rules.

And this is EXACTLY the point we have been trying to make! When people who know better use incorrect terminology those who don't know better assume RIGHT of way means it is their god given inalienable right to not give way because they are in the "RIGHT" and it is a "right of way" because you, a vetted & experienced sailor who is knowledgeable of the rules said so......

Seasoned vets who know the rules need to be setting the best example possible and continually referring to the COLREGS as Right of Way is simply wrong and incorrect. It can also be DANGEROUS to those who don't fully understand the complexities of the COLREGS other than windward/leeward boat, starboard/port tack etc...

As was posted earlier the USCG recognized this in the early 70's and PURPOSELY CHANGED IT so as not to denote any "rights".

SFS · Jun 14, 2016

^^^ +1

kloudie1 · Jun 14, 2016

Wait..... What??

justsomeguy · Jun 14, 2016

gettinthere said:
If my wife were posting here I would already know the answer. Right?

Just by the look in her eye, I suspect.

Gunni · Jun 14, 2016

If you are right about something, and your wife does not hear it, are you still wrong?

BayMan · Jun 14, 2016

Two guys go into a bar.
Guy one says "Lets talk about COLREGS"
Guy two says "What is that?"
Guy one says "You, know, the Right of Way Rules"
Guy two says "Oh, yeah, why didn't you just say that".

This is how, I bet, 99% of these conversations go. If there are boaters out there who don't know what the rules are it is not because most people call them by their common vernacular, Right of Way Rules, instead of COLREGS. Telling someone there are rules regarding rights of way doesn't tell anyone anything about who has these rights, when they have them and why they have them. There is no basis, just from the title of the rules, for anyone to assume that they, rather than someone else, has any god given inalienable right to do anything. So these misguided people you refer to are not misguided by the title they are misguided because they did go beyond the name of the rules to learn that in some situations a boat can stay its course and in others it must give way but they never truly learned them.

I am not knocking you who chose to refer to the rules by their official name. But you are fooling yourself to think that their common name is not Rights of Way Rules. Google the term. Go to the BoatUS page and see what title they use. And, IMO, I don't believe that referring to these rules by their common vernacular rather than official name is contributing to misunderstanding of the rules.

Again, this discussion is going nowhere fast. We have a different opinion on this even if we all know and follow the actual rules.

Kermit · Jun 14, 2016

Gunni said:
If you are right about something, and your wife does not hear it, are you still wrong?

Bingo!