Right of way question

[gettinthere]

Internet has been a problem all day. Sorry to start a fight.

I was boat A (surprise). We were sailing up the Chesapeake with wind about 160. I had a whisker pole out. Boat B is crossing at roughly a 90 degree angle to me, maybe he was 60d wind, maybe 90d to the wind, hard to tell.
I could turn to starboard and then run parallel to him and never get back on course. Or I could turn to port. Great, let me just furl that headsail, collapse the pole, switch it to the other side, unfurl the headsail and pass astern of the other boat and then furl in the headsail, collapse the pole, switch it back and unfurl the headsail and resume course. No problem. Is that really the rule?? Really?

I assumed (apparently wrongly) the idea Peggy posted.

And BTW, Boat B didnt make it any easier. When I first saw him and was trying to figure whether there was an issue, he started heading up a bit. Then he changed back to his old course leaving me a little less time to decide.

We turned on the engine, turned 90d to starboard and kinda forced him behind us. His turn to starboard was real easy and he past behind us in a flash. Regardless of whether he coulda done that sooner, I am astonished the rules would require me to jibe vs him heading up a bit.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I am astonished the rules would require me to jibe vs him heading up a bit.

Indeed that is what the rule requires. I think you ended up in such a tricky situation because the rules don't really have a way to account for each unique situation, and so they're written to make the best of the most common crossing situations. I'm guessing that the windward/leeward rule was made either for the lee shore reasons suggested above, or because if two boats are dead down wind, then the leeward one should not be forced into a gibe that they're unprepared for. I know the rule led to some hardship in your situation, but if the rule were opposite I'm sure there would be plenty of similarly unique situations when someone else would have a hard time.

By the way, next time try to consider early what the minimum course correction might be to avoid collision. You might find that an early small correction in either way is enough to get off the collision course without needing to change your sail configuration.

P.S. Glad you stuck around. I think your question has spawned enough discussion to show that there is indeed no dumb question.

 

[gettinthere]

Early course correction was muddled by Boat B's head fake turn to starboard.

Regardless of that, my only choice would have been to turn to port and stall or round up into the wind and hope the current and breeze didnt push me into his unyielding path. A cr@ppy situation all round.

 

[Davidasailor26]

arly course correction was muddled by Boat B's head fake turn to starboard.

Yeah, that's not cool. He is the "stand on vessel", and here's where the distinction between "stand on" and the deprecated "right of way" term comes into play. His responsibility is to hold his course unless he needs to turn to avoid collision if you fail to.

 

[Kermit]

Btw...I had the dubious honor of being the only powerboater to chair the race committee at my YC...had that job for 5 years. I suspect it was only because my boat was such a great committee boat.
View attachment 124567

Being cute didn't hurt.

 

[woodster]

Being cute didn't hurt.

yea and nothing to do with the boat smelling fresh and clean

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Internet has been a problem all day. Sorry to start a fight.

I was boat A (surprise). We were sailing up the Chesapeake with wind about 160. I had a whisker pole out. Boat B is crossing at roughly a 90 degree angle to me, maybe he was 60d wind, maybe 90d to the wind, hard to tell.
I could turn to starboard and then run parallel to him and never get back on course. Or I could turn to port. Great, let me just furl that headsail, collapse the pole, switch it to the other side, unfurl the headsail and pass astern of the other boat and then furl in the headsail, collapse the pole, switch it back and unfurl the headsail and resume course. No problem. Is that really the rule?? Really?

We turned on the engine, turned 90d to starboard and kinda forced him behind us. His turn to starboard was real easy and he past behind us in a flash. Regardless of whether he coulda done that sooner, I am astonished the rules would require me to jibe vs him heading up a bit.

I was in the exact same scenario on Lake Hopatcong years ago, except I was Boat B. I was making my way upwind at a narrow area of the lake and I really didn't want to give way or luff. Boat A was an E-scow with spinnaker up. The fleet had just finished their race and they were headed south to the yacht club. Normally, I would avoid conflicts with the fleets during a race, but I knew the races had ended at the north end of the lake. Besides, I had talked with a few of these guys and they always said that anytime I'm stand on in the middle of the fleet, hold course because they would react accordingly.
In this case, when the crossing became apparent, it looked to me that I would cross ahead with plenty of room anyway. Just one problem ... those E-scows move FAST when they are on a run under spinnaker. Soon enough it became obvious that we were getting uncomfortably close to collision. It almost felt like a game of chicken and just as I was going to luff into the wind, there was a flurry of activity on the E-scow and they performed 2 jibes to pass behind me. It looked like dad with a couple of teenagers for crew. I got a friendly wave as they passed astern. I figured they just considered it a training exercise.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

yea and nothing to do with the boat smelling fresh and clean

Welll...that too. But mostly it was the boat's configuration plus a generator that provided AC power to run the computer and the printer plus heat or A/C if needed, which meant we had the results by the time we'd picked up the marks and spent the mandatory 30 minutes at the guest dock in case of protests.

 

[Kermit]

Welll...that too. But mostly it was the boat's configuration plus a generator that provided AC power to run the computer and the printer plus heat or A/C if needed, which meant we had the results by the time we'd picked up the marks and spent the mandatory 30 minutes at the guest dock in case of protests.

Nah, it's all about the fresh-smelling boat. That and being a hotchick.

 

[woodster]

kermit you are a silver tongued devil but very accurate

 

[woodster]

hum here we are in a thread about getting our butts chewed out by the old man...... and it has evolved to flirting with the lady that has the last word in lonesum on toilet bowls...... is that what they mean by thread drift......

 

[Meriachee]

is that what they mean by thread drift

Not necessarily. Buy the Pogo and be so far upwind that you can't see anybody; and wave at Peggy before you leave.
The first rule of Italian driving: "what's behind me is not important".

 

[Benny17441]

Neither, according to the rules of the road right of way has to be yielded and cannot be claimed. One boat will ask and the other may yield communicating on how the crossing or overtaking will be executed.

 

[jeffclown]

doesn't matter whether one or both is under sail or whether one or both are under power.and those rules sayeth that in a crossing situation, the vessel to starboard is the stand-on vessel...port vessel is give-way. If giving way is gonna be a problem, that's what a VHF radio is for. It's amazing how many problems can be prevented with comunication and a little courtesy.

Peggy is awesome and I just need to make this one clarification because it's important. Actually it does matter if the vessels are of different type in a crossing situation - generally the less maneuverable vessel is the stand-on vessel and that supersedes which vessel is to starboard. First, a vessel being Overtaken (i.e. less than 22.5 degrees crossing) is always the stand-on vessel, no matter what type (Rule 13). Always. Then, a vessel Not under command, then Restricted in ability to maneuver, (then constrained by Draft inland and indicating so with day shapes or lights), then a vessel engaged in Fishing (i.e. with lines and nets extended and showing day shapes or lights), then a Sailing vessel, then a Power-driven vessel, then a Sail plane. The mnemonic is "One Night Roger (Didn't) Forget Sue, Poor Sue." So, when a sailing vessel and power-driven vessel are crossing, the power-driven vessel should give way and it doesn't matter that the power-driven vessel is to starboard. Once you are of the same vessel type (e.g. sailing vessel not under power), then the rules of starboard vessel (or sailboat on starboard tack) begin to apply for who is the stand-on vessel. I believe this is the clearest explanation. When in doubt, as Peggy said, communicate and show courtesy. Sailboats, like gnats, coming for a close look at an aircraft carrier does not give them "right of way."

 

[Capt jgw]

1) Boat US would no doubt be very interested in those posters here who believe 'right of way' is not a nautical concept: BOAT US has dedicated a fair amount of effort to this topic:

Right of Way Rules - Boat US - Online Boating Safety Study Guide
www.boatus.org/guide/navigation_1.html
Knowing a few, simple right of way rules will help you avoid a collision. ... The Navigation Rules distinguish one vessel from another by both its design, and by its ...

Under COLRRGS, the words "Right of Way" only appear in situations concerning power driven vessels on the Western Rivers or Great Lakes, down bound with a following current. Everywhere else it is "Stand On" or "Give Way". We use terms interchangeably, but they are not. "Right of Way" is absolute, the other vessel must keep clear no matter what. "Stand On" and "Give Way" leave you options.

 

[Jackdaw]

Internet has been a problem all day. Sorry to start a fight.

I was boat A (surprise). We were sailing up the Chesapeake with wind about 160. I had a whisker pole out. Boat B is crossing at roughly a 90 degree angle to me, maybe he was 60d wind, maybe 90d to the wind, hard to tell.
I could turn to starboard and then run parallel to him and never get back on course. Or I could turn to port. Great, let me just furl that headsail, collapse the pole, switch it to the other side, unfurl the headsail and pass astern of the other boat and then furl in the headsail, collapse the pole, switch it back and unfurl the headsail and resume course. No problem. Is that really the rule?? Really?

I assumed (apparently wrongly) the idea Peggy posted.

And BTW, Boat B didnt make it any easier. When I first saw him and was trying to figure whether there was an issue, he started heading up a bit. Then he changed back to his old course leaving me a little less time to decide.

We turned on the engine, turned 90d to starboard and kinda forced him behind us. His turn to starboard was real easy and he past behind us in a flash. Regardless of whether he coulda done that sooner, I am astonished the rules would require me to jibe vs him heading up a bit.

You've discovered what many pleasure sailors know; that COLOREGS (or the IWR) were really designed to prevent large ships from crashing by creating very clear rules. On pleasure craft, those same rules apply, but you have an option. HAIL them. either on the radio or voice, ask if you can hold course. and they avoid.

99% of the time they will happily oblige, and 50% of the time they will be happy because they did not know who was stand on anyway.

 

[BayMan]

Right of way means something different in cruising and in racing. When racing if you have right of way you have the right to do a lot. In cruising if you have right of way you must stand on your course. Boat B here didn't stand on or give clear notice of his intentions early on. He altered course then altered it again. That's what threw you off.
And the right of way rules apply to anything that floats. The only reason this situation is worthy of discussion is that both boats were sailboats actually under sail.

 

[MitchM]

thanks, gettinthere: I had to diagram this to figure out what was going on. so you on A is the windward give-way, 'burdened' boat, while B is the 'stand on' leeward 'privileged' boat (having 'right of way' as BoatUS puts it.) B should stand on and hold course, then A has to try to turn hard to starboard, put wind abeam, and duck behind B's stern without colliding with B which could be tricky if the wind is gusty or B is vacillating about being stand-on. or A gybes to run in the opposite direction of B, parallel to B, and still to windward of B. then A's still on SB tack and risking collision if B holds course. in any case A should be blasting the 5 whistle signal and calling up B on radio. (meanwhile it took me so long to vector- diagram this, i probably would have run into B. )

congratulations to you or making the right decision. this should be a navigation rules final exam.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

A friend of mine who crews in races frequently told me about rounding a mark when every Captain was yelling, "STARBOARD" There was lots of yelling and jockeying for position until someone yelled, "PORT! NO INSURANCE."

And everybody got out of his way.

 

[sesmith]

Since you were the give way boat, and you were already poled out, could you have just quickly pulled your main to center, jibed the main, and gone behind the other boat wing on wing? That would have been my preference, if possible. If you had to turn a little more, with the poled out headsail, it might not have been a big deal to go a little further than that, so long as the wind wasn't too much (with a poled out headsail, it probably wasn't too great anyway).

FWIW, I often choose to turn behind the other boat rather than in front of. If they get gusted, they will likely turn up wind, making matters worse. That may be what happened when you got the wrong signals that they were turning.