Right of way question

[gettinthere]

How could he be downwind of me the entire time? Wind was behind me, he would have to be in front of me to be downwind of me. He was off my port, crossing my path.

I turned on the engine and turned hard to starboard. We were running almost parallel courses. As I got ahead of him, he finally turned up a bit to pass behind. Or we could both have kept going into the shore.

Frankly, at that point, I didnt care much about the rules. He faked going behind me and trapped me in a bad situation. It was SIGNIFICANTLY easier for him to head up 5 degrees instead of me having to turn 90 degrees, with pole out. So I kinda forced him to go behind me. Not dangerously so, but he finally accepted it was easier. My only choice at that point would have been a 360 turn to go behind him. Would you force someone into that? I wouldnt

 

[Ron20324]

He does not have to be in front of you to be "downwind" as far as making ROW decisions and course changes.

 

[Stu Jackson]

gt, I think the difficulty many of are having with your description of the events is twofold:

1. The description itself is hard if not impossible to understand. Your last post said "going into the shore." That was never mentioned before, as it would be important if, indeed, shore was nearby. If not, it doesn't matter at ll. I didn't understand your 90d 160d in your OP. Hence, here we are, four pages later and you're still trying to explain it. Many (mis)understood that he was beating, which would imply going upwind toward you. Maybe a sketch would help.

2. The rules are important.

 

[Stu Jackson]

gt, I think the difficulty many of are having with your description of the events is twofold:

1. The description itself is hard if not impossible to understand. Your last post said "going into the shore." That was never mentioned before, as it would be important if, indeed, shore was nearby. If not, it doesn't matter at ll. I didn't understand your 90d 160d in your OP. Hence, here we are, four pages later and you're still trying to explain it. Many (mis)understood that he was beating, which would imply going upwind toward you. Maybe a sketch would help.

2. The rules are important.

 

[gettinthere]

I have to ignore your comment, you said ROW!!

Somebody splain for me hpw this isnt a passing situation?

 

[Sandy Stone]

Generally, a boat is considered "overtaking" if he would have been able to see your white stern light if he had been approaching you at night, as opposed to your red or green side lights. Going back to your freeway analogy, this is really more like you encountering another car at an intersection, and you have a "yield" sign.

 

[SFS]

I'm still struggling with this downwind idea for my situation.

Yeah, that is a tough one. I've composed and recomposed this post multiple times, but see if any one or more of the following ideas help. Keep in mind that the regulation, when discussing upwind and downwind positioning, don't mean (only) DIRECTLY upwind or downwind.

1) Since you were both on starboard tack, and not running parallel, one of you was closer was (by definition) to the true wind direction. Don't know if you remember vectors from high school, but you can work it out that way.
OR
2) If you were on parallel course, you would know immediately who was upwind, right? So picture two boats running parallel, side by side, on a starboard tack beam reach. Mentally stick a big pin in the starboard aft corner of the upwind boat and drag it into a position that recreates the relative positions of the two boats when this episode started. To do this, the boat being moved has to move upwind. (That's not the only direction it will move, but relative to the other boat, it has to move upwind.) It may make it easier to visualize if you allow the boat to pivot on the big pin, allowing the bow to fall off the wind.
OR
3) If you are running almost dead downwind, and are concerned about hitting something that is (in a relative sense) enough "ahead" of you now that you will hit it in the future, that "something" has to be downwind of you.
OR
4) If you are both on a starboard tack, and on a collision course, if you are on a run, and he is on any other point of sail, he has to be downwind (in relation to you).

I see what your thinking is with the "he was faster, the relative courses were only 70 degrees apart", but he was not overtaking you. The definition of overtaking includes a descriptor: "A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights."

Edit: Sandy beat me to the overtaking concept.

 

[Ron20324]

[QUOTE="Stu Jackson,... Your last post said "going into the shore." That was never mentioned before, as it would be important if, indeed, shore was nearby. .. Many (mis)understood that he was beating, which would imply going upwind toward you. Maybe a sketch would help.QUOTE]

I agree with Stu again. Going into shore implies you had little maneuvering room, and that would affect the rule that applies. You've been p##ing out details all along that should have been in the first post.

 

[gettinthere]

I was in the upper chesapeake. It is narrow, but not that narrow, perhaps 1/2 mile wide.

Apparently I was in the wrong. I dont understand why I would have to do a 360 with a whisker pole out vs the other boat doing a 5 degree change. I wont be using the new carbon fiber whisker pole any more if this is what I'm going to be faced with.

 

[gettinthere]

Again...

Turn to starboard and run parallel to boat B?

Turn to port, furl the headsail, retract the pole, switch it to the other side, extend the pole, unfurl the headsail. Then after passing astern; furl the headsail, retract the pole, switch it back, unfurl the headsail and resume course?

Do a 360d turn, loose way, break the pole and drift into B?

Or maybe, just maybe; Boat B turns up 5 degrees and goes behind me? This rule makes no sense to me. But thank you all for playing along. I'm done, getting frustrated.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Apparently I was in the wrong. I dont understand why I would have to do a 360 with a whisker pole out vs the other boat doing a 5 degree change. I wont be using the new carbon fiber whisker pole any more if this is what I'm going to be faced with.

I'm not convinced you were wrong.

I am convinced I still don't understand the situation, at all, from your multiple descriptions.

I am convinced you should be able to use your carbon pole as long as you want to.

 

[Ron20324]

GE, once I was on another skipper's boat, headed downwind next to another club boat who was using his pole. My skipper said prepare to jibe (I was at the helm). I said he's using a poled-out genoa. She said, "he can change course"- very selfish. That told me to be the nice guy and alter course for any boat with a pole out. Alot of people are morons.

There is no one rule that can address every possible situation. Use the rules and your brains... and sail on!

 

[druid]

First, remember "downwind" does not mean "DIRECTLY downwind". Draw a line perpendicular to the wind at your boat: is the other boat upwind or downwind of that line? If downwind, then he is "downwind".

Second, yeah, the downwind rule is a pain since we now run chutes, poled-out gennys, etc. Many's the time I had to collapse the chute to do my "give-way". But in the Old Days, it was the boat trying to go upwind that was struggling - the boat going downwind was much easier to manoever. I think if I was in your place (you were running headsail-only? no main?) I would do whatever it took to duck behind him - probably end up backwinding the genny, but going downwind that's not a Big Thing. But I suspect you could have "sat on the hairy edge" (just before backwinding) and you would slow down enough to let him go by. Or pull up, luff the genny and slow up til he goes by.

Hell, I was going round in circles (in 20-25 knots wind and 4 ft waves) trying to let a tug and its tow go by me at the entrance to the Fraser River last month.

druid

 

[druid]

GE, once I was on another skipper's boat, headed downwind next to another club boat who was using his pole. My skipper said prepare to jibe (I was at the helm). I said he's using a poled-out genoa. She said, "he can change course"- very selfish. That told me to be the nice guy and alter course for any boat with a pole out. Alot of people are morons.

There is no one rule that can address every possible situation. Use the rules and your brains... and sail on!

I've had the opposite. One time I was flying the (sym) chute single-handed with another boat sort of beside me, just with main and genny. Both of us were on port tack (main out to stbd) but I was downwind vessel. So... he casually jybed his main over so HE was on stbd tack and I had to collapse my chute to let him by. (btw - just sailing, NOT a race!) *sshole.

And don't get me STARTED on boats in a race thinking they have "right of way" (context intentional!) over non-race boats no matter what...

druid

 

[BayMan]

What is this about there being no Right Of Way in sailing? Right of way is the term that describes the set of rules to determine which boat may stand on and which must give way. We all use that term and understand what it means even if we are unclear on the actual rules. We should continue to call these rules what they are- right of way, even if those rules do not expressly designate one boat as having the "right of way".

 

[BayMan]

My way to remember the right of way rules when two sailboats meet. POW

P- when intersecting on opposite tacks, The boat on Port tack must give way.
O- if you are Overtaking the other boat, you must give way.
W- if you are the Windward boat when both are on same tack, you must give way.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Right of way is the term that describes the set of rules to determine which boat may stand on and which must give way.

No, it's called COLREGS and the Inland Waterway Rules.

You may not have read all the posts on this topic.

 

[Jackdaw]

What is this about there being no Right Of Way in sailing? Right of way is the term that describes the set of rules to determine which boat may stand on and which must give way. We all use that term and understand what it means even if we are unclear on the actual rules. We should continue to call these rules what they are- right of way, even if those rules do not expressly designate one boat as having the "right of way".

There IS a huge difference in the semantics of the terms.
Lets come up with a terms to describe a boat that the navigation gods smile upon based on their position on the water. Lets call this the BLESSED boat.

In racing the BLESSED boat has Right of way. That means (being blessed) that I can do WHAT EVER I WANT, just as long as I give the other boat time to react. That time is measured in seconds. I can use my blessing to tactical advantage. There are times when I am BLESSED and I want the un-blessed boat to decide what they are going to RIGHT NOW. So I point my bow at him. Time to decide! That's Right of way.

In non-racing situations, designed for big commercial and small pleasure craft, the BLESSED boat is 'stand on'. Unlike ROW, this boat does NOT have the right to do what ever it wants, but it must stand on (move in a consistent, deterministic manner), so the unblessed boat can avoid.

The difference is not subtle.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I still don't understand how gettinthere could have gotten into a situation that was so constrained that he needed to gybe at all on the open Chesapeake. Couldn't you see far enough ahead to make a minor course correction before it was necessary to gybe? Although it could be that the other skipper was playing a game by adjusting course just enough to be forcing the conflict. That would stir the pot!

 

[Jacktar]

One of you goes to power and ergo sum the other has right of way, easy peezy