Right of way question

[gettinthere]

No main, just poled out headsail.

His headfake could have been a gust where he rounded up.

I tried radio but with plenty of chatter on a weekend, got no response. I looked at him with binoculars and could see him looking right at me. My sense is he was going to stick to the rules and stand on right up to a collision.

I should have given the 5 horn blasts.

The main thing I learned from this...using a whisker pole can be a big problem and some sailors dont give a sh!t if it is.
If I had been B, I would have early, pointed up a little, scrubbed off a bit of speed and passed behind. But then, I try not to be a pr!ck on the water and rub the rules in other peoples face (except power boats )

 

[Capt jgw]

Trying to call the other vessel on VHF looks good on paper but a lot of boats just out for a day sail either don't have one on or it's down at the nav station and can't be heard or gotten to readily. Commercial vessels are required to monitor 13 and 16 so they can usually be reached. Some of the captains are too stuck up to talk to mere pleasure boaters, but they can hear you.

 

[Jackdaw]

The main thing I learned from this...using a whisker pole can be a big problem and some sailors dont give a sh!t if it is.

Well, one thing to add about this comment (and maybe the rest of your post) is this: work hard to get comfortable with any sailing configuration you plan to use. This includes any maneuver you might have to make, and for any reason, including respecting navigation rules. Just because its hard for you does not mean it hard for the other guy, who might not think (nor should he have to) that you'll have difficulty pulling off the maneuver.

Often if I'm sailing and am ROW or stand on, I'll look to see if the other driver can SEE ME. If I know he can that's the last I'll think about it.

 

[Stu Jackson]

This includes any maneuver you might have to make, and for any reason, including respecting navigation rules.

MOST IMPORTANTLY respecting navigation rules.

We often sail downwind on our way home, 45 minutes through a fairly narrow fairway which is part of the Oakland Inner Harbor: tugs, ships, and sailboats clawing upwind. It is so easy to avoid anyone coming upwind. You have to look ahead. One small gust of wind on an upwind boat shouldn't put you in harm's way unless you were too close to begin with.

I never had any hesitation to even let out a jib sheet or backwind the jib to make a slight turn to avoid stand on sailboats, then resume course.

Scratch it up to a very good lesson learned.

 

[gettinthere]

He wasnt ahead, he was off my port bow. This was just about a 90 degree crossing

 

[gettinthere]

As I think more about this, he may have been overtaking me.
I said he was about 90 degrees off my port bow. What if he was 80 degrees and was going to pass in front of me? He would have been overtaking me right? I do kbow that if neither of us changed course, I would have T boned him with my bow.

 

[Gunni]

He was on a different point of sail (beat) than you (run), no overtaking. Leeward sailor (the other dude) was stand on. The bay is very busy, need to maintain full situational awareness. If you can't get them on the radio, you got to do what you got to do; give way.

 

[druid]

There's always huge discussion and pedantics whenever "right of way" is discussed on a sailing/boating forum and it's unfortunate because a lot of sailors will think it's complicated and hard to understand and therefore NOT do the Right Thing.

First: WHO CARES if you talk about "right of way" or "stand on vessel"? Everyone knows what you're talking about if you use the term "right of way". So let's not be pedantic and know-it-all and try to "correct" someone who uses the term.

Second: the rules for a sailboat not racing are very simple:
1. Starboard tack has right of way.
2. Downwind boat has right of way.
3. Boat being overtaken has right of way.
4. Avoid a collision. (I guess this really should be first)

That's about it. That's kept me from hitting anything for 40 years.
druid

 

[gettinthere]

downwind boat is the one I did not know and didnt find any reference to in my searches.
Slightly confusing part is that he would not be downwind till the moment I T-boned him as he cut in front of me.

 

[Maine Sail]

This is from a document I have from the USNI (US Naval Institute):

"First, back in the day, vessels were designated as "privileged" and "burdened." The privileged boat would hold her course and speed and the burdened boat would take "early and substantial" action to avoid the collision. What the Coast Guard noticed through court cases though was that skippers involved in collisions would claim that they had "the right of way" or that they had "privileges." This implied something that doesn’t exist in The Rules – that you have no affirmative obligation to avoid a collision at sea, no matter how much "in the right" you are. So, The Rules were changed to remove this unintended subtlety. Just about every reference to the term "right of way" was removed from The Rules and the terms "privileged" and "burdened" were changed to "stand-on" and "give-way," respectively."

 

[Maine Sail]

There's always huge discussion and pedantics whenever "right of way" is discussed on a sailing/boating forum and it's unfortunate because a lot of sailors will think it's complicated and hard to understand and therefore NOT do the Right Thing.

First: WHO CARES if you talk about "right of way" or "stand on vessel"? Everyone knows what you're talking about if you use the term "right of way". So let's not be pedantic and know-it-all and try to "correct" someone who uses the term.

Second: the rules for a sailboat not racing are very simple:
1. Starboard tack has right of way.
2. Downwind boat has right of way.
3. Boat being overtaken has right of way.
4. Avoid a collision. (I guess this really should be first)

That's about it. That's kept me from hitting anything for 40 years.
druid

I care because nearly every week I hear new boaters use the phrase "I had rights" when referring to not giving way until the absolute last possible second. Why? Most often because they heard this from seasoned vets of boating or under-educated organizations such as Boat US, who also can't even set a proper example of correct terminology and who use the terminology incorrectly also. What is so difficult about using stand on & give way...??

No everyone does not know what you mean when you use the term "right of way" and to many newbs it implies RIGHTS which are not given in the COLREGS.

Nothing grates my skin worse than seasoned vets who know better yet still insist on using the term "right of way", it simply does not exist for sailboats.

If you ever hear me use the term "right of way" in regards to the stand on or give way you have my full permission to punch me in the nose.

 

[gettinthere]

I'll stop by this summer!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Everyone knows what you're talking about if you use the term "right of way". So let's not be pedantic and know-it-all and try to "correct" someone who uses the term.

While your four points make sense, I must disagree with you on this one.

It NOT pedantic to use the correct terms, especially in sailing, which has so many, but generally in all facets of life. I call a jib halyard just that because it is not a jib sheet. On this and other boating forums, new folks keep chiming in with incorrect terminology which is quickly corrected. There is a reason things have names, and their proper names should be used.

There simply is NO "r-o-w" in sailing/boating. It does NOT exist. It is, in some cases, actually dangerous to suggest that it does, and, hence, the misuse of the term could cause severe misunderstandings from new and old alike.

 

[Warren Milberg]

In over 40 years of sailing, I have had a only a few close calls when I was the "stand-on" vessel. It became clear to me that large numbers of boaters, sail and power, large and small, had not the slightest clue as what the "rules" are. This caused me to change my own rules of the road. I now always assume the other boat does not know the rules so I get out of the way, I do it early, and I make it clear I am getting the hell out of the way. This rule has worked well for me. No hits, no runs, no errors.

 

[gettinthere]

I'm still struggling with this downwind idea for my situation.

My wife just told me we were running courses much less than 90d, perhaps 70d relative to each other. He was going faster by reaching with full sail than I was by running with headsail only. He would only be downwind of me at the last minutes as he crosses my path, I had wind at 170d, almost directly behind, therefore he would have to be in front of me. Is this like pulling in front of somebody on the freeway and then slamming on the brakes and b,thcing about getting hit from behind?
I may buy a powerboat!

 

[Siamese]

I'm going with Boat B as the stand-on vessel. If they are on a collision course, then it seems that A must be the leeward boat. Because you haven't given another other circumstances, like narrow channel, etc., then I'm assuming two boat in open water.

 

[Gunni]

As the navigator she needs to know where the CPA (closest point of approach) will put his boat in a potential collision scenario. It would be leeward of your boat.

 

[Siamese]

In over 40 years of sailing, I have had a only a few close calls when I was the "stand-on" vessel. It became clear to me that large numbers of boaters, sail and power, large and small, had not the slightest clue as what the "rules" are. This caused me to change my own rules of the road. I now always assume the other boat does not know the rules so I get out of the way, I do it early, and I make it clear I am getting the hell out of the way. This rule has worked well for me. No hits, no runs, no errors.

That sounds like a good plan to me. It's annoying that there are so many "captains" out there that treat the waterways like a Walmart parking lot, but from a practical standpoint, it pays to change course when the other captain gives you reason to believe they're incompetent.

What's really annoying is when you change course to accommodate some idiot, make your intentions very clear by making an obvious change in course, and then they change course to put you in peril again. If this hasn't happened to you, you're not sailing enough.

 

[woodster]

well for me as a novice i take the attitude that i don't want to be the one that caused that mishap , near miss or almost hit them sorta thing ...so i exercise caution and to hell with weather i am stand on or give way ...i just try to stear clear ...and i don't feel a bit lessor for it ........also i read other discussion on this subject in the past and the ultimate conclusion has always been no one has the right of way or there is no right of way..... my objective is to bring my boat back into my slip in as good of shape as when i left to go out..... .....

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I'm still struggling with this downwind idea for my situation.

My wife just told me we were running courses much less than 90d, perhaps 70d relative to each other. He was going faster by reaching with full sail than I was by running with headsail only. He would only be downwind of me at the last minutes as he crosses my path, I had wind at 170d, almost directly behind, therefore he would have to be in front of me. Is this like pulling in front of somebody on the freeway and then slamming on the brakes and b,thcing about getting hit from behind?

By your own description, the other boat was downwind from you the entire time. He was sailing upwind while you were sailing downwind on a collision course. How can you say that the other boat wouldn't be downwind until you collided? How does the freeway analogy work if you weren't going in the same direction? The other boat must have been equally confused by your refusal to give way if it was as close as you describe. To make matters worse, you describe turning the engine on to speed up so that you could cross ahead of the other boat. So you then became a power boat that flaunted the rules and displayed bad manners! Shame!JK
We all have some bad moments, lord knows I've had my share. Two sailboats on an open area of Chesapeake Bay can't really take each other by surprise, and you certainly can't close fast enough to warrant extraordinary effort to avoid each other. Why would you not simply adjust course early enough to make this a non-issue?