Replacing Diesel with Electric Engine

Scott T-Bird · Sep 7, 2014

Johann said:
I think electric would be a great choice for these people. If you can afford $500K for a boat you don't take anywhere, you can afford a propulsion system that won't get you anywhere

Ha, now that's funny! It seems that the general consensus is that an electric motor makes sense for folks who use their auxiliary propulsion (or depend upon it) the least. Now, maybe it's just me, but that sounds oxymoronic. Why would anybody feel the desire to invest in a system (at potentially greater cost and greater weight) that provides the least capability. If it is for environmental reasons, then I applaud the sentiment, but if you're like me (I seem to be a good candidate) why should I feel more environmentally conscientious for using electric power (which is generated primarily by burning fossil fuels) when my annual diesel purchase is about 10 gallons?

I'm sure there will be a day when better propulsion systems will make more sense than the internal combustion engine. I'm also fairly certain that I won't be on the leading edge among those who insist that the time has come. I'll wait until it is economically advantageous and practically feasible, if I live that long.

mitiempo · Sep 7, 2014

There is not as much "green" to electric as there might seem. AC charging in the US means coal produces most of the power and batteries are certainly not green in either the production or recycling.

To spend a lot of money to get less makes no sense.

1 gallon of diesel equals 500 lbs of batteries.

Johnb · Sep 7, 2014

Going briefly over to the other side, if I was a lake Tahoe sailor I would seriously consider electric because the clarity of that gorgeous lake is a major issue, it is about 18 x 9 miles so you can tack all day, has no currents and if there is no wind the weeniest motor will get you home. When I sailed dinghies on lakes we paddled home if there was absolutely no wind, that was character building, but very rare.

Bob J. · Sep 7, 2014

mitiempo said:
There is not as much "green" to electric as there might seem.

There's no "green" to it & the folks that think it is have drank the koolaid. Like Cartwright said, It's all a bunch of tree hugging hippie crap"

I hate diesel in a boat only because I do not like the smell. But I've have had numerous pieces of equipment that run on diesel but you're not hanging out or sleeping in it. Heck I have a TDI Jetta because I get 51 mpg averaged out over the course of a year. So I either go electric or toss a 9.9 outboard on the transom.....

The thing about EP is you can spend a little now & over time add to it in the way of solar, etc. Most that go this route have a Honda 2000 generator so if they do need to "motor" a considerable distance, they run it so they don't deplete the battery bank. Also many do have slips so they connect to the mother ship to run their charger. According to Jane Fonda, electricity is green

jepomer · Sep 9, 2014

For the past four years I have exclusively used an electric Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 on a Capri-22. For the past three years it has been on a mooring (Winthrop MA) using only solar panels to recharge the 24 volt 210 amp-hour lead-acid batteries and a separate Group 24 12 volt "house" battery.

These two different battery sets use separate Genasun charge controllers off the same array of Ganz solar panels (115 watt rating) bolted on the foredeck. I can walk on these panels and they are flat on the deck causing effectively no windage (as opposed to the single rigid panel that used to be mounted on a frame on the transom).

Since I am primarily a day sailor who often joins in various local regattas, the setup works very well for my needs. I go out once or twice a week. Mostly the electric motor gets us in and out of the mooring field. The solar panels will replenish that amount relatively quickly. Occasionally, I do do bring the charge level down to 50% but this is uncommon and the solar panels have a week to recharge the batteries.

The Nissan 5 HP outboard that came with the boat is still in my possession if I ever need to motor long distances. I do have that option although the motor is not kept on board. But I have yet to run out of battery energy even when I have had to run near hull speed for 40 minutes for the start of a race because we were late and then have to motor back 12 NM because there was no wind (we motored at 3 knots).

Can electric motor work for a sailboat? Yes it can. But there are limits. If this fits within your own sailing patterns, then you will be happy. If you routinely motor longer distances and/or go out every day, then it might not work for you.

My setup allows me to enjoy sailing using only wind and solar power (the argument of electrical power transmission from dirty coal plants does not apply to my setup). For the nay-sayers, my setup and usage is an example that works in a tidal area.

For my wife and me, we feel the extra money spent for the electric motor, batteries, and solar panels was well spent. We enjoy the relative quiet of the motor while we can talk at normal levels. The small 2 cycle engine whine simply made us tense.

Scaling up to a larger boat is possible. Many people have done it and are happy with the limitations. Batteries and charging systems are nowhere near as fast as refueling a gas or diesel engine nor will batteries give the same range as a full fuel tank.

You just need to be realistic about your expectations before going electric.

kloudie1 · Sep 10, 2014

Check out these.. faster, and very fuel efficient.. much faster to recharge..
http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/index.php?id=1272
Solar powers the thermals that are used to gain altitude .. these "cruise" at about 100MPH between thermals with the engine stopped. ..
As many previous posters have said, the reality of electric power in boats is that if you fit in the small range box that electric constrains you to, it is a good solution to the diesel or gasoline engine aux propulsion. My assessment is that electric power will be a very good solution when fuel cells become more affordable.. http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2175018
these provide electricity silently and very efficiently. and can be "throttled"

Scott T-Bird · Sep 10, 2014

TriSwiss, I'm struck by your devious intentions. You start the thread with "I'm curious if anyone has considered replacing their old Diesel Engine with either an Electric Engine or Hybrid system. Technology has drastically improved everything from solar panels, wind turbines and battery power."

Ok, that's fair enough. Apparently many people have considered and found that electric and/or hybrid doesn't meet their needs and/or desires. In fact, some very good arguments have been raised in disagreement.

This is when your true colors show. Instead of simply accepting the fact that people with an open mind have decided against it at this time, you start labeling dissenters "nay-sayers" and "afraid". It is reminiscent of the folks who use the label "flat-earthers" to denounce anybody who is skeptical about "climate change" because of the political ramifications.

Sure quiet is nice ... but my preference when replacing an old diesel was a new diesel. I'm glad I had that choice and I'm not going to apologize or feel ridiculed about making it. I would be approaching jepomer at more than twice the speed and possibly offering him a tow so that he wouldn't have to crawl home at a snail's pace!

25yearslater · Sep 10, 2014

Scott, I too have weighed the options. I had seriously considered the electric option but opted for a little work on the old A4. The weight of the system and complexity of installation made it unfeasible. While I hate the stink of diesels and know of their drawbacks with low power and short run intervals if the need arises to replace the iron wind it will be with a new Beta Marine Yanmar. At half the weight of the A4 it should provide the power I need for my lousy few hours a year I run the engine. The weight savings alone should make YOT a bit quicker due to the lower wetted surface.

Scott T-Bird · Sep 10, 2014

My gut feeling is that there will be a future when internal combustion engines are a thing of the past ... but I'm skeptical about the future of electric engines in the current form of power generation and storage and even about the way it is evolving. There is a lack of economic and physical efficiency that doesn't seem possible to overcome. I also resent that tax subsidies are required to make solar panels an economical solution for some people as they apply them to their homes. (Don't even bother trying to make the BS argument that oil companies survive by tax subsidy).

I think there will be some other form of power generation that will be discovered/invented that will replace internal combustion, but it won't be electric.

Johann · Sep 10, 2014

TriSwiss said:
Jet out the electric fighter jet from Boeing

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/impossible-electric-airplane-takes-flight/

That thing is closer to being a banana than it is to being a fighter jet.

With regards to your neighbor, I would like to know more specifics. How is he running his electrical demands at night, or when it's cloudy? How many SqFt of panels does he have? Does he know the brand? Model? Efficiency? Just want to do some research on his setup.

Rick D · Sep 10, 2014

FYI:
http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/powered-by-elco/h-27e.shtml

Johann · Sep 10, 2014

Rick D said:
FYI:
http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/powered-by-elco/h-27e.shtml

I actually looked into these guys when considering a replacement for a 1GM. But I was put off by their misleading advertising regarding weight. They claim a weight savings but neglect the weight of the batteries and solar array, which puts the total system weight at over twice the diesel replacement, and that includes transmission and fuel! This coupled with the lack of tech specs and charts led me to be skeptical of their other claims. It appears their range claims are on total battery depletion, while charging times are based on 50% dod. Buyer beware.

Maine Sail · Sep 10, 2014

Johann said:
I actually looked into these guys when considering a replacement for a 1GM. But I was put off by their misleading advertising regarding weight. They claim a weight savings but neglect the weight of the batteries and solar array, which puts the total system weight at over twice the diesel replacement, and that includes transmission and fuel! This coupled with the lack of tech specs and charts led me to be skeptical of their other claims. It appears their range claims are on total battery depletion, while charging times are based on 50% dod. Buyer beware.

And Elco is one of the better ones. I actually like the Elco product. My earlier posts in this thread discuss exactly what you wrote about here...

IMHO these companies would do much better by being brutally honest, even if the reality of being honest lost a few sales....

Gunni · Sep 10, 2014

Webb Chiles is nearing New Zealand on his sixth circumnav aboard his Moore24, with a Torqueedo electric outboard as his auxiliary. Clearly there is an element of skill and finesse in making electric propulsion work.

shemandr · Sep 10, 2014

Gotta love Webb. I'm not sure I would want to duplicate his voyages. But I love reading about them!

Maine Sail · Sep 10, 2014

TriSwiss said:
I thought I would post a comparison between like-for-like Electric vs Diesel:

Electric vs. Diesel

Elco EP-1200 Electric
Motor weight: 206 lbs

Yanmar 2YM15 Marine Diesel 14 hp
Motor weight: 227 lbs
Transmission: 29 lbs
Fuel (24 gal x 7.1 lbs*): 171 lbs
Fuel Tank (24 gal capcity): 24 lbs
Total Engine Weight: 451 lbs

Total propulsion unit weight (Option 1 - Universal Battery UB-8D AGM Sealed Lead Acid)

Elco: 4 x 160.94 lbs = 644
Yanmar: 2 x 160.94 lbs = 322

Total propulsion unit weight (Option 2**: Lithium Pros L40 - Lithium Pros 12-Volt Lithium Batteries)

Elco: 4 x 7.5 lbs = 236 Lbs
Yanmar: 2 x 7.5 lbs = 337 Lbs

* Gasoline weighs about 6.1 pounds per gallon. Diesel weights about 7.1 pounds per gallon.

** Ion-Lithium batteries cost roughly $1,000 each compared to standard batteries @ $184 each.

Why would a boat with a 2YM15 have two 8D batteries? I work on a lot of boats and the typical config on a boat with a 2YM is usually two group 27's or 31's for about half the battery weight of two 8D batteries. Also a number was transposed and the Elco 1200 weighs 260 pounds not 206... A Beta 14HP diesel with the reversing gear weighs 198 pounds. A Westerbeke 12D weighs 225 pounds and a M320B Universal weighs 227 pounds...

Also you still have a 12V house bank in there somewhere which is often ignored in these comparisons.......

Elco, like others, will often quote DC>DC converters to pull 12V house loads of the 48V bank but these converters can't handle such things as windlass motors, electric winches bow thrusters etc.. The inrush and high loads fry them. So the best way to do this is with a separate house battery bank, a weight the electric conversion guys often omit when quoting electric but tend to include when making the comparisons to diesel.... You also need to take your house loads into account when figuring range if using a pull-off DC>DC converter. For a cruising boat this could be 50-80Ah's a day on top of the electric propulsion motor and this could make the bank sizing grow pretty immensely..

Again this can easily be done but REAL MATH has to be used, YOUR USE has to be DEFINED and it has to be defined honestly and accurately.......

Johann · Sep 10, 2014

TriSwiss said:
I thought I would post a comparison between like-for-like Electric vs Diesel:

Electric vs. Diesel

Elco EP-1200 Electric
Motor weight: 206 lbs

Yanmar 2YM15 Marine Diesel 14 hp
Motor weight: 227 lbs
Transmission: 29 lbs
Fuel (24 gal x 7.1 lbs*): 171 lbs
Fuel Tank (24 gal capcity): 24 lbs
Total Engine Weight: 451 lbs

Total propulsion unit weight (Option 1 - Universal Battery UB-8D AGM Sealed Lead Acid)

Elco: 4 x 160.94 lbs = 644
Yanmar: 2 x 160.94 lbs = 322

Total propulsion unit weight (Option 2**: Lithium Pros L40 - Lithium Pros 12-Volt Lithium Batteries)

Elco: 4 x 7.5 lbs = 236 Lbs
Yanmar: 2 x 7.5 lbs = 337 Lbs

* Gasoline weighs about 6.1 pounds per gallon. Diesel weights about 7.1 pounds per gallon.

** Ion-Lithium batteries cost roughly $1,000 each compared to standard batteries @ $184 each.

1. The EP-1200 weighs 260#, not 206.
2. The diesel I compared is the Nanni N2.14 (14hp) Kubota. 203# including TMC40 transmission.
3. Fuel capacity was 15gal, that is 22 hours of motoring if you don't go below 1/4 tank (who has 24gal on a 27' boat?)
4. Starting battery was a group 24 at 55#. (Who has TWO 8D batteries for their starting bank???)
5. The L40 LiFePO4 is a 20 AH battery! You would need 40 of them, not 4!!

So, you are making some of same errors as the companies marketing these electric systems.

With the correction:
Elco EP-1200 260#
Batteries 4 8D 644#
Solar array 50#
Total weight 954#

Nanni N2.14 203#
15 gal + tank 120#
Battery grp24 55#
Total weight 378#

Even with the 2YM15 the total weight is just 431#.
If you spent $40000 on the 40 L40s you would save 344#, still close to twice the weight of the diesel system.