Redundant speed or depth

Blitz

.
Jul 10, 2007
613
Seidelmann 34 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
I'm thinking of adding a speed/depth/temp (Raymarine) transducer to my existing system utilizing one of the existing holes in my hull used by one of my Datamarine transducers. My Datamarine system works fine but does not talk (due to age) to my current Raymarine system which includes an e series MFD, st60 autopilot, and wind.

The Datamarine system has two separate transducers, one for speed and one for depth.

Basically, I'm looking to integrate the systems with a airmar transducer which ties into my existing Seatalk ng backbone and will give me Speed/depth/temp from one transducer. (Any problems with these?)The question is what Datamarine transducer should I disconnect and use the hole to install a new Ramarine Airmar transducer- my existing depth or speed?

I'm thinking on keeping redundant depth instruments make the most sense. I will also need to fill in one of the Datamarine instrument display holes in the forward end of my Cockpit where they where mounted thru the bullhead. I may use the hole in the bulkhead to mount redundant Raymarine instrument displays from the ones I have at the wheel on the pedestal.

Any thoughts?
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
I agree with Ken..
if you dont quite know for sure what you need and have to ask, its always more important to know how shallow the water is, than it is to know how fast its going by the speed wheel.... you have a GPS to tell you your actual SpeedOverGround...

but it is also nice/necessary when charting and navigating to know the speed you are going thru the water, so you can do your calculations and estimations...
 

Blitz

.
Jul 10, 2007
613
Seidelmann 34 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
Feb 14, 2014
5,785
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Are these all in one transducers for the sea talk ng system?
Yes!
The first link is of the optional 'Speed/Depth/Temperature" combos and the T910 is wireless, even.

The second link is of the "WOW FACTOR" 3D CHIRP Sonar (depth/Temp)
Here is the link of the MFD display of CHIRP sonar images. This was military technology of >10 years ago. Uses 15 different sound frequencies, not just the standard 2 for sonar. The CHIRP transducer must be thru hull!
http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=8069

I would suspect your e series MFD had the CHIRP sonar module built in already. Check their site with your MFD model number.

Since you have Speed Over Ground (SOG) from GPS, for non racing, it is good enough, in general.
In a straight run, the difference between SOG and paddle wheel type "hull speed" should be "water currents".
NOTE: Hull speed is used by your MFD for many calculations if it available. It is kind of like True versus Actual Wind speed.

You have given me an idea. I have 2 PITA type thru hulls. One for hull speed and the other for Depth/Temp.
I may buy the combo for 1 and free up the other for CHIRP. I was waiting till I had to put my boat on the hard.
Thanks!
Jim...

PS: PITA= Pain In The Ass
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
Jim gives a good answer... and with the exception of NOT being able to "shoot thru" the hull, there is no good arguable downside to having all 3 functions in one unit... most manufactures have been producing them this way for years with good success...
 
Oct 26, 2010
1,462
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
Jim gives a good answer... and with the exception of NOT being able to "shoot thru" the hull, there is no good arguable downside to having all 3 functions in one unit... most manufactures have been producing them this way for years with good success...
You can in fact shoot through the hull with the RAYMARINE CHIRP Downvision sonar. I got one of the plastic transom mounted senders with my a98 package so decided to see if it would shoot through the hull. I wanted a depth sensor as far forward as I could in the boat (not much advance warning but better than a few inches forward of the leading edge of the keel). I placed it in the forward cavity just forward of the water tank embedded in epoxy resin in a little box I built out of pvc board to protect it. It works perfectly in both the fishfinder and downvision mode. The hard part is running the cable from the transducer to the a98 as it hooks directly to the back of the a98. There may be another way to hook it up but I'm not sure of that. I've also heard of other people imbedding it in wax but the resin was easier for me. I'm very very pleased with the performance and it wis really a "cool factor". You can see not only what is directly unde the boat but see how the bottom is "trending" easier with the rastor display instead of just a digital readout. Raymarine will not endorse shooting through the hull as it is not specifically designed for this and they don't know what the condition of your hull is with regard to voids in the fiberglass, but believe me it works if the spot is carefully selected and the sender is coupled to the hull with no voids.

Before you try to install it you can place it in a bag of water (with no air bubbles below it) and set it where you want to see if it works. It is very important that you have no air voids in the fiberglass hull at the location.
 

Blitz

.
Jul 10, 2007
613
Seidelmann 34 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
Not sure why, they look identical...
http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=1479
Jim...
Jim, thanks for the replies. Your first link just goes to the page of all the depth transducers, was there a model you were recommending? I was looking at the DST800, model #A22111 for the speed / depth / temp. This was because it seems like the only one that hooks right into my sea talking backbone and I should be able to calibrate it through my one instrument that is an i70.

Assume if I want to fish or anchor in a tricky area the Chirp would be a good choice for changing my depth transducer as well. I would need to decide this now I assume since I wouldn't think I could have two depth messages on the same backbone.
 
Feb 14, 2014
5,785
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
You can in fact shoot through the hull with the RAYMARINE CHIRP Downvision sonar. I got one of the plastic transom mounted senders with my a98 package
Good job! :thumbup:

I have thought about a suggestion, from an earlier post, of floating the transom mount behind, like a in tow "dinghy". I wasn't sure about the effects of the wake.

You are spot on, if you can "tune out" false echoes and don't mind the attenuation of the signal.
I don't, since I won't be going very often to 200+ feet of water.

Someone asked why I would use such a toy for sailing.

My answer...
Water is the sport of which I love sailing, add to that scuba, fishing, photography, entertainment and CHIRP becomes a tool.
Jim...

PS: Sounds like you located the approximate spot the Raymarine dealer told me where the thru hull would be needed. Don't forget the heel of the keel and your sonar beam will be under your boat in 20+ feet of water.
 
Oct 26, 2010
1,462
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
Jim, thanks for the replies. Your first link just goes to the page of all the depth transducers, was there a model you were recommending? I was looking at the DST800, model #A22111 for the speed / depth / temp. This was because it seems like the only one that hooks right into my sea talking backbone and I should be able to calibrate it through my one instrument that is an i70.

Assume if I want to fish or anchor in a tricky area the Chirp would be a good choice for changing my depth transducer as well. I would need to decide this now I assume since I wouldn't think I could have two depth messages on the same backbone.
If you decide to go with the CHIRP, it connects directy to the back of the a-series MFDs, not to the backbone, so you can use both a traditional thru-hull transducer hooked to the backbone and the CHIRP transducer (I have not noticed any interference when using both at the same time, it may be different if they are really close together.) I found out from the Raymarine techs on the forum that as I understand it, there is no easy way to connect the CHIRP transducer to the backbone and it needs to hook directly into the a98. There is a rather large (1/2 inch or so) connector on the cable from the transducer so that will need to be taken into consideration in running the cable from the transducer to the MFD. Raymarine says you cannot cut the cable and re-attach the connector.
 

Blitz

.
Jul 10, 2007
613
Seidelmann 34 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
Just to clarify, I have an eSeries MFD of which I did not opt for the built in sonar when I purchased it when the eSeries first came out (my unit was also part of the raymarine recall).

Unfortunately, I won't be able to fit any more cables up the pedestal guard to my MFD for the optional direct connect to the back of my unit.

It is good to know there isn't any interference from the transducers.
 
Jul 1, 2014
228
Hunter 34 Seattle
Blitz, I replaced my old units with a DST 800 and an i70. They worked great. Regarding plugging the old instrument holes in your bulkhead, I made some panels out of starboard to cover. I came up with a pattern that sorta matched the lines of the bulkhead cowling then made one for the other side so they would match. Since that time I added a MFD and moved everything to a navpod at the helm which meant I had to upgrade the pedestal guard to a 1-1/4" model so I could fit all the cables but the starboard panels work nicely to cover old holes.
IMG_1212.JPG IMG_1238.JPG
 

Blitz

.
Jul 10, 2007
613
Seidelmann 34 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
Charlie98117 said:
Blitz, I replaced my old units with a DST 800 and an i70. They worked great. Regarding plugging the old instrument holes in your bulkhead, I made some panels out of starboard to cover. I came up with a pattern that sorta matched the lines of the bulkhead cowling then made one for the other side so they would match. Since that time I added a MFD and moved everything to a navpod at the helm which meant I had to upgrade the pedestal guard to a 1-1/4" model so I could fit all the cables but the starboard panels work nicely to cover old holes.
Charlie - your starboard solution looks great.

I installed the 1-1/4" pedestal guard as well so that at the helm I have the eSeries MFD, one i70 instrument, and two st60 instrument head (one for the wind, and the other for the autopilot).
 
Jul 1, 2014
228
Hunter 34 Seattle
Yes, it seems a major consideration on electronics is "can I get the plug where it needs to go". I the simplicity of adding components like the DST 800 that plug directly into the backbone but you always have the ones that must be plugged into the MFD.

I also got a MFD that came with the transom mount CHIRP transducer. I was going to mount it against the hull like Smokey73 and got the plug pulled all the way to the navpod but couldn't get it through the hole I had there. I could ream it out but left that project for another day. I still want/need to get a radar and am looking seriously at the new RM wireless CHIRP model to avoid having to get another large plug into the navpod.

I have a wind transducer to install (soon as I figure out how to get the wire down the mast). The depth and speed show up on the MFD so I was thinking I could use the i70 or a split window on the MFD as a wind instrument instead of adding a separate instrument head for that. Or do you think I would be better having a dedicated wind intrument?
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
You can in fact shoot through the hull with the RAYMARINE CHIRP Downvision sonar. I got one of the plastic transom mounted senders with my a98 package so decided to see if it would shoot through the hull. I wanted a depth sensor as far forward as I could in the boat (not much advance warning but better than a few inches forward of the leading edge of the keel). I placed it in the forward cavity just forward of the water tank embedded in epoxy resin in a little box I built out of pvc board to protect it. It works perfectly in both the fishfinder and downvision mode. The hard part is running the cable from the transducer to the a98 as it hooks directly to the back of the a98. There may be another way to hook it up but I'm not sure of that. I've also heard of other people imbedding it in wax but the resin was easier for me. I'm very very pleased with the performance and it wis really a "cool factor". You can see not only what is directly unde the boat but see how the bottom is "trending" easier with the rastor display instead of just a digital readout. Raymarine will not endorse shooting through the hull as it is not specifically designed for this and they don't know what the condition of your hull is with regard to voids in the fiberglass, but believe me it works if the spot is carefully selected and the sender is coupled to the hull with no voids.

Before you try to install it you can place it in a bag of water (with no air bubbles below it) and set it where you want to see if it works. It is very important that you have no air voids in the fiberglass hull at the location.
I have no experience with the CHIRP transducers.... I was referring to the triple function transducer, speed-temp-sonar.... yes, it can be attached to the inside of the hull, but you will lose the speed function, and depending on the design, the temp sensor. a lot of times the temp sensor still will function, but will be slower in sensing the temperature change in the water... which is mostly a tool for fishermen anyway. for us sailboaters there are only 2 tempertures that the water may have....its either too cold to swim in, or it isnt:biggrin:
 
Feb 14, 2014
5,785
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Yes, it seems a major consideration on electronics is "can I get the plug where it needs to go". I the simplicity of adding components like the DST 800 that plug directly into the backbone but you always have the ones that must be plugged into the MFD.
I am not a Raymarine Tech, but the electronic world is fast changing to wireless.:clap:
http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=1237

I upgraded to a 18" Digital Radome and at a surprisingly low cost in May 2015. I now know why it was low cost. Raymarine introduced its new Radar, that is kinda like CHIRP with multiple frequencies that nearly 3D's the scans "Quantum series".
You should only need one cable to your MFD and of course, power. The old and new Raymarine products use the SeaTalk(ng) protocol. They make a converter box for both SeaTalk (old) and NMEA. The protocol is "plug and play" for the SeaTalk(ng) new instruments and the same if you have that Converter for other products.
Why not use Internet, USB computer, or Blue Tooth, protocols?

SAFETY, RELIABILITY AND FAIL SAFE NEEDS!

This is a link that may be useful and my post #6 there, brags about my new MFD/Radar and Older ST+ instrument working in harmony.
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...-real-world-use-question.174475/#post-1238032

I would need to decide this now I assume since I wouldn't think I could have two depth messages on the same backbone.
Bad assumption.;)
You can probably have many transducers, I don't know the limit. Protocol = Identifiers, data ranges, and much more than just the digital data transmission.
The "back bone" is slang for the main transmission line, kinda like the Interstate highway and each instrument has its own entrance and exit ramp, and no cars can enter or receive traffic from/to the "back bone" without permission and proper license plates.;) See page 24 from the install guide.
SeaTalk.png

Note 12VDC power and the single line connection to your MFD (not shown) is a single Backbone cable.
Raymarine techs are a phone call away and very good.
Jim...
 
Oct 26, 2010
1,462
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
I have no experience with the CHIRP transducers.... I was referring to the triple function transducer, speed-temp-sonar.... yes, it can be attached to the inside of the hull, but you will lose the speed function, and depending on the design, the temp sensor. a lot of times the temp sensor still will function, but will be slower in sensing the temperature change in the water... which is mostly a tool for fishermen anyway. for us sailboaters there are only 2 tempertures that the water may have....its either too cold to swim in, or it isnt:biggrin:
I agree with that - its either too cold to swim or its not! I was thinking you were alluding to the fact that Raymarine officially says you can't shoot through the hull with the CHIRP transducers. It will work, but I guess there are too may variables for them to say it will work for sure. I didn't think the three in one (speed/temp/depth) were CHIRP sonar capable so I thought you were referring to those, Sorry!

In all reality the CHIRP/Downvision is just for the WOW factor. I've told myself that its to give me a few more seconds to back down before I hit the mud here in SC and GA when feeling my way through the thin water frequently found here. I also tell myself that I can scope out an anchorage for obstructions that might catch my anchor, but again, I think that is rationalization, not justification. Anyway, it is way cool, so I guess I don't need to justify it anyway.