Questions about Radar on smaller boats?

Apr 8, 2011
768
Hunter 40 Deale, MD
A commercial fishing boat making 30 kt while fishing?
Wellll...just throwing out various scenarios, some of which may not correlate to the dx/time equation. But hey, if you can troll that fast you can cover a lot of water! ;)

I came upon a boat off the coast of Maine at night on a solo watch that I saw on radar at some distance, was watching him, could see a big spotlight, and he was speeding up, then slowing down, then doing a 180, and I couldn't figure out what he was doing - or his intent - and he wouldn't answer on VHF. He was essentially doing unpredictable things right across my path. Eventually, as I got closer and could see him through the binos I figured out he was a commercial fisherman actively fishing at night, and when I got within a few hundred yards of where he was stopped dead - hoping to cross his bow on my course, he sped up crossing right in front of me. Assuming he had nets streaming astern I had to take the long way around him, tacking, trimming, hoping not to snag a surface float or net, and in lumpy seas. He wasn't particularly fast, but it was a headscratching contact right up to the end.
 
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Jan 19, 2010
12,362
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Thanks everyone....

I think I'm getting a clear picture (see what I did there):thumbup:

I still have one question. So if your radar is on a pole... do you see your mast on the display screen? If so, is it something you just learn to ignore? Does it block viability of other targets?

Edit: @Capt jgw answered my question while I was typing this... thnx capt.

I have only every been caught out in fog once. It was on a crossing from Ocracoke NC to Swanquarter. It was 2012 and all I had with me were paper charts and a hand-held Garmin. I would have been perfectly confident except that there was no wind... so I had to turn on my O.B. so now I could not hear or see. I moved real slow and glared at my bow in fear of seeing another boat.

BUT I am moving to Charleston in August and hope to get caught out in fog a lot more often (well actually I just hope to do a lot more coastal sailing and expect to get caught out).

I am considering this RADAR...

It is a wireless radar that sends to an iPhone or iPad.

I already have a lot of stuff on my stern pole.... my stern pole is actually the mast crutch for when I'm trailering....

I could see building something that goes where my existing pole now sits....maybe a little taller. Would be easy to do. I could put my mast crutch in the shed when the boat is in the water. I think I'd also like a slightly larger solar panel and maybe move my VHF antenna onto the top of the mast. My VHF already has AIS and a RAM. I can also add the fog horn to my RAM but that is an add-on feature.

2018-05-31 11.32.16 HDR.jpg
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Apr 8, 2011
768
Hunter 40 Deale, MD
Thanks everyone....

I think I'm getting a clear picture (see what I did there):thumbup:

I still have one question. So if your radar is on a pole... do you see your mast on the display screen? If so, is it something you just learn to ignore? Does it block viability of other targets?
CaptJDW posted a good answer to this up a few posts - its a fast moving thread so you may have missed it ;)
 
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AaronD

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Aug 10, 2014
723
Catalina 22 9874 Newberg, OR / Olympia, WA
What is the weight of a radar. Would it impede the mast raising due to weight?
Since this thread is (at least partially) about small pocket-cruisers, this seems like a relevant question. The Furano DRS4W dome is rated as 12.5 lbs (that's their wifi-to-tablet radar system; I would guess other radomes might be similar in weight). My C-22's mast is ~75 lbs with furler. So yes, I'd think another 12 would affect mast raising.

Strawman theory (from someone who's never really investigated radar) for you all to shoot down: What about mounting a bracket a few feet up the mast with waterproof wiring connectors there, and attaching the radome after mast raising? My C-22's mast step is ~3.5' above the waterline, and I can reach another ~8. So I think I could mount a radome at ~10' total height (allowing a little slack to attach it without needing a step up). That's high enough to get reasonable range (and probably as high as you'd get with a stern pole on a pocket cruiser).

You could skip it for daysailing or racing and mount it for cruising. Seems like it might be a viable alternative to a stern pole (which would also add rigging time). But maybe there are reasons it wouldn't work at all (and it's a pretty idle pondering, as it's unlikely I'll be adding radar anytime soon).
 
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Jan 19, 2010
12,362
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Strawman theory (from someone who's never really investigated radar) for you all to shoot down: What about mounting a bracket a few feet up the mast with waterproof wiring connectors there, ...
Also a strawman theory but one of the reasons I suggested above the jib tang is to avoid any problems with the jig hanging up during a tack. Might not actually be a problem but ...?
 
Oct 26, 2010
1,882
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
Wellll...just throwing out various scenarios, some of which may not correlate to the dx/time equation. But hey, if you can troll that fast you can cover a lot of water! ;)

I came upon a boat off the coast of Maine at night on a solo watch that I saw on radar at some distance, was watching him, could see a big spotlight, and he was speeding up, then slowing down, then doing a 180, and I couldn't figure out what he was doing - or his intent - and he wouldn't answer on VHF. He was essentially doing unpredictable things right across my path. Eventually, as I got closer and could see him through the binos I figured out he was a commercial fisherman actively fishing at night, and when I got within a few hundred yards of where he was stopped dead - hoping to cross his bow on my course, he sped up crossing right in front of me. Assuming he had nets streaming astern I had to take the long way around him, tacking, trimming, hoping not to snag a surface float or net, and in lumpy seas. He wasn't particularly fast, but it was a headscratching contact right up to the end.
@tfox2069 - I don't disagree at all that distance = time but, again, even in the case you cite above, you said "eventually, as I got closer and could see him with the binos" you waited until you had some confirmation before taking action. Except for the 30 knot guy coming right at you most situations have a reasonable time to react. If you're solo sailing and napping or sailing at night there are other risks like running into a submerged object etc. I don't set my alarm radius at the max range or even 5 miles. I"d have constant alarms. There are a lot of factors into the decision. The OP identified himself/herself as a coastal crluiser with a small pocket cruiser not a bluewater cruiser intending to cross shipping lanes. I agree with everything you say but there are trade offs and budget to consider. With all the new gear coming out the OP might be able to score a gently used functional radar compatable with his current chartplotter for a bargain. If you can get it high in then all the better and I'd do that if I were making a bluewater run to Bermuda.

By the way, I did a Bermuda to RI on a 28 foot sailboat with an Atomic 4, paper charts, sextant, (no gps or Loran) a VHF and only a "radio direction finder" we could use when we got close to land.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,362
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Thanks everyone.... this has been an educational thread.
 
Nov 22, 2011
1,192
Ericson 26-2 San Pedro, CA
I have a Standard-Horizon GX2200 with AIS capability wired into my chartplotter. No, it doesn't give me all of the functionality of radar, but I think it's a good deal better than nothing. In L.A. Harbor, a large commercial shipping port, commercial shipping is required to use it. It also allows me to ring up the bridge of any particular ship directly through DSC.

Again, this is not an argument against having radar, even though I personally don't have one. I'm just saying that it was an easy and cheap addition to my little 26 footer and would help me in crossing the shipping lanes if conditions got thick suddently (as has happened to me before) vs. not having it. Even better would be if I had an AIS transmitter as well, but I don't.

My first tactic would be, like KG, to avoid those conditions in the first place and stay in port. But sometimes that is not always possible, unfortunately.
 
Nov 22, 2011
1,192
Ericson 26-2 San Pedro, CA
I have the same VHF but I use my phone as a chart plotter. I'd like to add the remote speaker fog horn feature to mine.
As you know (though others might not), the GX2200 can display AIS targets on its own built-in screen. But it was a very easy matter to interface it with my Garmin plotter, and I greatly prefer using it that way.

Yes, the remote fog horn feature would be nice to use. At some point I may hook that up as well.
 
Apr 8, 2011
768
Hunter 40 Deale, MD
+1 on interfacing a VHF with AIS receiver (or transceiver) to your chartplotter. On an NMEA 2000 network its very easy - and the instant info available on your chartplotter is really great. That plus radar will give you a really good picture of what's around you, and as Alan mentioned the DSC comms capability is a neat feature.
 
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Feb 21, 2013
4,638
Hunter 46 Point Richmond, CA
Sailed/motored in fog and moonless and/or cloudy nights on both the east and west coast and inland waterways of the US and would not have done that without a radar, in addition to my chartplotter (and Loran back in the day) before AIS. Radar is my minimum required safety instrument IF I get caught OR plan to be in those conditions. When sailing in Los Angeles radar was required to navigate through the shipping channel and then outside the channel with ships, fishing boats, oil platforms and islands.

Ditto Alan..............I have the same Standard Horizon GX2200 VHF radio and plan to integrate its AIS receiver capability on the Raymarine chartplotters at the nav station and helm.
 
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AaronD

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Aug 10, 2014
723
Catalina 22 9874 Newberg, OR / Olympia, WA
I have the same VHF but I use my phone as a chart plotter. I'd like to add the remote speaker fog horn feature to mine.
On a small boat, all the mounting points I could think of for the fog horn seemed like they'd get in the way (tacking, and especially when raising the mast). So I wired the horn with a quick disconnect (2 wire trailer-style plug) and put neoprene and a cinch strap on the base. In fog, we strap it to the mast, and leave it out of the way the rest of the time. There's a picture with my VHF post. Possibly helpful to someone.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,362
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
On a small boat, all the mounting points I could think of for the fog horn seemed like they'd get in the way (tacking, and especially when raising the mast).
I was thinking I’d place it about half way out on one of my spreaders
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,988
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
I was thinking I’d place it about half way out on one of my spreaders
My fog horn too stays below unless I’m actively using it, or expect to soon. If I need it, I bring it up and lash where convenient, usually at the mast about 5 ft up from the deck. Then, connect the wires to the hailer also using those trailer-light quick connects. So, most of the time it’s not mounted and not in the way of something in the rigging. Generally takes only a few minutes to deploy.
 
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Jun 8, 2004
10,024
-na -NA Anywhere USA
@rgranger knows his boat as well as I. I have given him a name and phone number of a very qualified sailor in Charleston who knows the area well. I would suggest not be caught out at night or in fog without radar as he is a darn good sailor as he recognizes Charleston is a major port with a lot of ship traffic but most important the unusual swift currents one needs to know for their own safety.
However, most small boats do not need radar if you are a pleasure sailor who sails for the day in good weather only. Definitely not for daysailors. However that is a decision for each sailor to make if radar is warranted.

However there is a school called Citadel and VMI. VMI is first in line but over a bunch of Grog, both schools are number 1
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,988
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
I disagree with the intimations that one needs radar to sail or motor safely at night. That is why vessels display lights and lighting patterns; so we can see those vessels at night, identify what they are, and know their direction of travel relative to ours. The lights, together with a pair of 7x50 Fujinons and the ability to hail the other vessels on VHF, is sufficient for safety.
 
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Jan 19, 2010
12,362
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
I disagree with the intimations that one needs radar to sail or motor safely at night. That is why vessels display lights and lighting patterns; so we can see those vessels at night, identify what they are, and know their direction of travel relative to ours. The lights, together with a pair of 7x50 Fujinons and the ability to hail the other vessels on VHF, is sufficient for safety.
I think everything you said here is true... unless you are in a thick fog. And I don't think I ever said anything about night sailing....

Although it has only happened to me once so far... it lasted almost all day and I spent the day on high alert in fear of some credit-card-captain running me down. This was not a night time fog. It lasted until 5:00 PM. I could only see about 20' in front of my bow so .... :yikes:

I expect I will be weekend sailing at least once a month going forward. I already have AIS on my VHF so I can see the commercial boats. But if a fog rolls in, I also want to see other pleasure craft, buoys etc. Because I have a swing keel, I'm not as paranoid about staying in the deepest part of the channel...in fact, I like to explore coves and shores and it is those shoal waters that the weekend fishing boats also travel through.


I don't have any experience with RADAR so I may be off base but the idea of being able to pierce the fog is very appealing. In truth... if I am able to stay put, I will stay put and wait for the fog to lift but if I get caught out or a storm is approaching... I'd like to get home to my nice warm bed.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,024
-na -NA Anywhere USA
Not necessarily so. In the early 80’s, I was sailing with a friend whom I thought was a friend but carelessly stupid on my boat sailing off shore from Rudy’s Inlet to Norfolk left everything on turning the volume down which discharged all three batteries on board, so we had no instruments or lights. In fact he dropped marine charts overboard without telling me. In addition put something in the fuel tanks which adversely affected running of the engine as a joke. Felt like throwing him overboard. Well night upon us in fog in the shipping channels to Norfolk trying to sail listening to what was out there narrowly missing two freighters , scared the crap out of me.

I usually kept a Virginia road map with the insert of the Chesapeake Bay, flashlight and an AM radio on board tucked away for emergencies. With flashlight on with insert of Bay, I took the AM radio turning it till I got the strongest signals cross plotting it on that map and sailed in that direction to Willoboughy Spit coming within several hundred feet of my mark. It worked like the old RDF. THE KEY WAS KNOWING WHERE THE STATIONS WERE.