Questions about Radar on smaller boats?

tfox2069 · Jun 12, 2020

Kings Gambit said:
A commercial fishing boat making 30 kt while fishing?

Wellll...just throwing out various scenarios, some of which may not correlate to the dx/time equation. But hey, if you can troll that fast you can cover a lot of water!

I came upon a boat off the coast of Maine at night on a solo watch that I saw on radar at some distance, was watching him, could see a big spotlight, and he was speeding up, then slowing down, then doing a 180, and I couldn't figure out what he was doing - or his intent - and he wouldn't answer on VHF. He was essentially doing unpredictable things right across my path. Eventually, as I got closer and could see him through the binos I figured out he was a commercial fisherman actively fishing at night, and when I got within a few hundred yards of where he was stopped dead - hoping to cross his bow on my course, he sped up crossing right in front of me. Assuming he had nets streaming astern I had to take the long way around him, tacking, trimming, hoping not to snag a surface float or net, and in lumpy seas. He wasn't particularly fast, but it was a headscratching contact right up to the end.

tfox2069 · Jun 12, 2020

rgranger said:
Thanks everyone....

I think I'm getting a clear picture (see what I did there)

I still have one question. So if your radar is on a pole... do you see your mast on the display screen? If so, is it something you just learn to ignore? Does it block viability of other targets?

CaptJDW posted a good answer to this up a few posts - its a fast moving thread so you may have missed it

AaronD · Jun 12, 2020

Crazy Dave Condon said:
What is the weight of a radar. Would it impede the mast raising due to weight?

Since this thread is (at least partially) about small pocket-cruisers, this seems like a relevant question. The Furano DRS4W dome is rated as 12.5 lbs (that's their wifi-to-tablet radar system; I would guess other radomes might be similar in weight). My C-22's mast is ~75 lbs with furler. So yes, I'd think another 12 would affect mast raising.

Strawman theory (from someone who's never really investigated radar) for you all to shoot down: What about mounting a bracket a few feet up the mast with waterproof wiring connectors there, and attaching the radome after mast raising? My C-22's mast step is ~3.5' above the waterline, and I can reach another ~8. So I think I could mount a radome at ~10' total height (allowing a little slack to attach it without needing a step up). That's high enough to get reasonable range (and probably as high as you'd get with a stern pole on a pocket cruiser).

You could skip it for daysailing or racing and mount it for cruising. Seems like it might be a viable alternative to a stern pole (which would also add rigging time). But maybe there are reasons it wouldn't work at all (and it's a pretty idle pondering, as it's unlikely I'll be adding radar anytime soon).

smokey73 · Jun 12, 2020

tfox2069 said:
Wellll...just throwing out various scenarios, some of which may not correlate to the dx/time equation. But hey, if you can troll that fast you can cover a lot of water!

I came upon a boat off the coast of Maine at night on a solo watch that I saw on radar at some distance, was watching him, could see a big spotlight, and he was speeding up, then slowing down, then doing a 180, and I couldn't figure out what he was doing - or his intent - and he wouldn't answer on VHF. He was essentially doing unpredictable things right across my path. Eventually, as I got closer and could see him through the binos I figured out he was a commercial fisherman actively fishing at night, and when I got within a few hundred yards of where he was stopped dead - hoping to cross his bow on my course, he sped up crossing right in front of me. Assuming he had nets streaming astern I had to take the long way around him, tacking, trimming, hoping not to snag a surface float or net, and in lumpy seas. He wasn't particularly fast, but it was a headscratching contact right up to the end.

@tfox2069 - I don't disagree at all that distance = time but, again, even in the case you cite above, you said "eventually, as I got closer and could see him with the binos" you waited until you had some confirmation before taking action. Except for the 30 knot guy coming right at you most situations have a reasonable time to react. If you're solo sailing and napping or sailing at night there are other risks like running into a submerged object etc. I don't set my alarm radius at the max range or even 5 miles. I"d have constant alarms. There are a lot of factors into the decision. The OP identified himself/herself as a coastal crluiser with a small pocket cruiser not a bluewater cruiser intending to cross shipping lanes. I agree with everything you say but there are trade offs and budget to consider. With all the new gear coming out the OP might be able to score a gently used functional radar compatable with his current chartplotter for a bargain. If you can get it high in then all the better and I'd do that if I were making a bluewater run to Bermuda.

By the way, I did a Bermuda to RI on a 28 foot sailboat with an Atomic 4, paper charts, sextant, (no gps or Loran) a VHF and only a "radio direction finder" we could use when we got close to land.

Alan Gomes · Jun 12, 2020

I have a Standard-Horizon GX2200 with AIS capability wired into my chartplotter. No, it doesn't give me all of the functionality of radar, but I think it's a good deal better than nothing. In L.A. Harbor, a large commercial shipping port, commercial shipping is required to use it. It also allows me to ring up the bridge of any particular ship directly through DSC.

Again, this is not an argument against having radar, even though I personally don't have one. I'm just saying that it was an easy and cheap addition to my little 26 footer and would help me in crossing the shipping lanes if conditions got thick suddently (as has happened to me before) vs. not having it. Even better would be if I had an AIS transmitter as well, but I don't.

My first tactic would be, like KG, to avoid those conditions in the first place and stay in port. But sometimes that is not always possible, unfortunately.

Alan Gomes · Jun 12, 2020

rgranger said:
I have the same VHF but I use my phone as a chart plotter. I'd like to add the remote speaker fog horn feature to mine.

As you know (though others might not), the GX2200 can display AIS targets on its own built-in screen. But it was a very easy matter to interface it with my Garmin plotter, and I greatly prefer using it that way.

Yes, the remote fog horn feature would be nice to use. At some point I may hook that up as well.

tfox2069 · Jun 12, 2020

+1 on interfacing a VHF with AIS receiver (or transceiver) to your chartplotter. On an NMEA 2000 network its very easy - and the instant info available on your chartplotter is really great. That plus radar will give you a really good picture of what's around you, and as Alan mentioned the DSC comms capability is a neat feature.

sail sfbay · Jun 12, 2020

Sailed/motored in fog and moonless and/or cloudy nights on both the east and west coast and inland waterways of the US and would not have done that without a radar, in addition to my chartplotter (and Loran back in the day) before AIS. Radar is my minimum required safety instrument IF I get caught OR plan to be in those conditions. When sailing in Los Angeles radar was required to navigate through the shipping channel and then outside the channel with ships, fishing boats, oil platforms and islands.

Ditto Alan..............I have the same Standard Horizon GX2200 VHF radio and plan to integrate its AIS receiver capability on the Raymarine chartplotters at the nav station and helm.

AaronD · Jun 12, 2020

rgranger said:
I have the same VHF but I use my phone as a chart plotter. I'd like to add the remote speaker fog horn feature to mine.

On a small boat, all the mounting points I could think of for the fog horn seemed like they'd get in the way (tacking, and especially when raising the mast). So I wired the horn with a quick disconnect (2 wire trailer-style plug) and put neoprene and a cinch strap on the base. In fog, we strap it to the mast, and leave it out of the way the rest of the time. There's a picture with my VHF post. Possibly helpful to someone.

Kings Gambit · Jun 12, 2020

rgranger said:
I was thinking I’d place it about half way out on one of my spreaders

My fog horn too stays below unless I’m actively using it, or expect to soon. If I need it, I bring it up and lash where convenient, usually at the mast about 5 ft up from the deck. Then, connect the wires to the hailer also using those trailer-light quick connects. So, most of the time it’s not mounted and not in the way of something in the rigging. Generally takes only a few minutes to deploy.

Crazy Dave Condon · Jun 14, 2020

@rgranger knows his boat as well as I. I have given him a name and phone number of a very qualified sailor in Charleston who knows the area well. I would suggest not be caught out at night or in fog without radar as he is a darn good sailor as he recognizes Charleston is a major port with a lot of ship traffic but most important the unusual swift currents one needs to know for their own safety.
However, most small boats do not need radar if you are a pleasure sailor who sails for the day in good weather only. Definitely not for daysailors. However that is a decision for each sailor to make if radar is warranted.

However there is a school called Citadel and VMI. VMI is first in line but over a bunch of Grog, both schools are number 1

Kings Gambit · Jun 14, 2020

I disagree with the intimations that one needs radar to sail or motor safely at night. That is why vessels display lights and lighting patterns; so we can see those vessels at night, identify what they are, and know their direction of travel relative to ours. The lights, together with a pair of 7x50 Fujinons and the ability to hail the other vessels on VHF, is sufficient for safety.

Crazy Dave Condon · Jun 14, 2020

Not necessarily so. In the early 80’s, I was sailing with a friend whom I thought was a friend but carelessly stupid on my boat sailing off shore from Rudy’s Inlet to Norfolk left everything on turning the volume down which discharged all three batteries on board, so we had no instruments or lights. In fact he dropped marine charts overboard without telling me. In addition put something in the fuel tanks which adversely affected running of the engine as a joke. Felt like throwing him overboard. Well night upon us in fog in the shipping channels to Norfolk trying to sail listening to what was out there narrowly missing two freighters , scared the crap out of me.

I usually kept a Virginia road map with the insert of the Chesapeake Bay, flashlight and an AM radio on board tucked away for emergencies. With flashlight on with insert of Bay, I took the AM radio turning it till I got the strongest signals cross plotting it on that map and sailed in that direction to Willoboughy Spit coming within several hundred feet of my mark. It worked like the old RDF. THE KEY WAS KNOWING WHERE THE STATIONS WERE.