Question about nav lighting

[centerline]

in regards to the boats being discussed here (sailboats, especially those of us titled and registered as sailing vessels) the primary means of moving the vessel is the sails, so if the sails or any airfoil (rigid wing sails etc) are in use then it is sailing, no questions asked, the machinery driving the vessel is listed as an aux power source, so again, if the sails are present then it is sailing and subject to the sailing light requirements, ie keep your sails up while moving and follow the lighting rules for sailing.

maybe i misinterpret your meaning, but no matter how the boat is registered, as soon as the transmission is shifted into gear while the engine is running, legally it becomes a motor boat, no matter if the sails are still up and full of wind....

and the lighting pattern legally needs to be changed... there is no argument to justify otherwise cuz the law doesnt accept ignorance as an excuse...

but unless there is a problem, whos going to be asking if your motor is helping push your boat along or if you have it running to just charge the batteries????.....

 

[Ron20324]

...the primary means of moving the vessel is the sails, so if the sails are in use then it is sailing, no questions asked, the machinery driving the vessel is listed as an aux power source, so again, if the sails are present then it is sailing and subject to the sailing light requirements, ie keep your sails up while moving and follow the lighting rules for sailing.

That is, unless the engine is in gear. A fine example of the misleading information dealt out.

 

[rufus1138]

maybe i misinterpret your meaning, but no matter how the boat is registered, as soon as the transmission is shifted into gear while the engine is running, legally it becomes a motor boat, no matter if the sails are still up and full of wind....

and the lighting pattern legally needs to be changed... there is no argument to justify otherwise cuz the law doesnt accept ignorance as an excuse...

but unless there is a problem, whos going to be asking if your motor is helping push your boat along or if you have it running to just charge the batteries????.....

you're right, sorry, but again like you said at the last, unless there is a problem who is going to ask, if anything kick it out of gear before anyone comes close and claim battery charging. sailing is sailing and most of the wildlife patrol and many coast guard ppl will try to tell a sailboat at night with the motor off to display a 360 white, wtf, its happened to me plenty.

 

[talbotb]

Small boat sailer here. Day Sailers don't come with lights. Most add them by using removable 1-mi. lights powered by AA batteries. (I decided to upgrade and mounted lights on the cuddy sides to mimic what I had seen on larger boats. A mistake: the sidelights reflect off the deck and trash night vision.) A removable light might be an inexpensive way to solve the stern light problem. However, the light as shipped is 360 degrees, which means it also shines into the cockpit. I tape the front of mine to approximate the stern angle. At anchor, I pull the tape off and hoist the light to the top of the mast to serve double duty as my 360 anchor light.

 

[Sunbird22358]

Technically, a sailboat with the sails up and the engine running (in gear or not) is a POWER_DRIVEN vessel and should show the lights of a power boat. Basically this is due to the fact that technically, if needed, you can engage the engine (if not already in gear) and manuever as a power-driven vessel not subject to the whims of the wind.
Whether the sails are providing any drive or not, if the engine is running..... Sorry, you are a power-driven vessel under the NavRules.

RULE 3 (same for both Inland and International)
(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used"

Now I supose we could debate untill the proverbial cows come home as to whether an engine running, but not in gear, is "being used", the NavRules don't really address that, my feeling is better safe than sorry and when the engine starts I am now a powerboat.
However, if you were to have a collision while sailing with the engine running but not in gear, and the investigation shows that the collision might have been avoided had you shifted into gear to take further action to try to avoid the collision, your level of fault will definitely increase, because it may be felt that you failed to take all possible action to avoid the collision, Sad but true.
Wtih the engine NOT running, it could be argued that you didn't have time to start the engine as a way to take evasive action....... and you would be viewed as a sailing vessel under the rules.
With engine running you are viewed as a power-driven vessel even though the sails are up and may even be providing some push. So, at night (or in times of reduced visibility) a sailing vessel with the engine running should be showing the lights of a power-driven vessel.

 

[rufus1138]

Technically, a sailboat with the sails up and the engine running (in gear or not) is a POWER_DRIVEN vessel and should show the lights of a power boat. Basically this is due to the fact that technically, if needed, you can engage the engine (if not already in gear) and manuever as a power-driven vessel not subject to the whims of the wind.
Whether the sails are providing any drive or not, if the engine is running..... Sorry, you are a power-driven vessel under the NavRules.

RULE 3 (same for both Inland and International)
(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used"

Now I supose we could debate untill the proverbial cows come home as to whether an engine running, but not in gear, is "being used", the NavRules don't really address that, my feeling is better safe than sorry and when the engine starts I am now a powerboat.
However, if you were to have a collision while sailing with the engine running but not in gear, and the investigation shows that the collision might have been avoided had you shifted into gear to take further action to try to avoid the collision, your level of fault will definitely increase, because it may be felt that you failed to take all possible action to avoid the collision, Sad but true.
Wtih the engine NOT running, it could be argued that you didn't have time to start the engine as a way to take evasive action....... and you would be viewed as a sailing vessel under the rules.
With engine running you are viewed as a power-driven vessel even though the sails are up and may even be providing some push. So, at night (or in times of reduced visibility) a sailing vessel with the engine running should be showing the lights of a power-driven vessel.

I can think of a ton of places where having sails up and maneuvering without regard to the wind using the motor could be completely disastrous. sounds like its safer (rules wise) to leave the motor off if the sails will be used, like.......be a sailor? how about practice sailing into the slip/mooring/anchoring, practice (especially on these smaller boats) backing with the sails, its all possible, that's why again the motor is an AUXILLIARY propulsion system, you don't need it.

 

[talbotb]

We seem to be moving away from navigation light specs into issues of general seamanship. I can think of several unpleasant conditions where a sailboat crew might want to engage an auxiliary while under sail. One that comes to mind is navigating a narrow channel with a current in fickle winds, particularly if neither the sails or motor are sufficient by themselves for holding course. I suppose an expert sailor would try to avoid those situations, but they often creep up on you--the wind shifts after you enter the channel, you slow down, the tide changes, now it's getting dark . . . . Good thing we got those navigation lights figured out.

 

[centerline]

Technically, a sailboat with the sails up and the engine running (in gear or not) is a POWER_DRIVEN vessel

Whether the sails are providing any drive or not, if the engine is running..... Sorry, you are a power-driven vessel under the NavRules.

RULE 3 (same for both Inland and International)
(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used"

Now I supose we could debate untill the proverbial cows come home as to whether an engine running, but not in gear, is "being used", the NavRules don't really address that, my feeling is better safe than sorry and when the engine starts I am now a powerboat.
However, if you were to have a collision while sailing with the engine running but not in gear, and the investigation shows that the collision might have been avoided had you shifted into gear to take further action to try to avoid the collision, your level of fault will definitely increase, because it may be felt that you failed to take all possible action to avoid the collision, Sad but true.
Wtih the engine NOT running, it could be argued that you didn't have time to start the engine as a way to take evasive action....... and you would be viewed as a sailing vessel under the rules.
With engine running you are viewed as a power-driven vessel even though the sails are up and may even be providing some push. So, at night (or in times of reduced visibility) a sailing vessel with the engine running should be showing the lights of a power-driven vessel.

most modern boats use an engine and a transmission to propel the boat.... either having the engine running without being in gear, OR, having the transmission in gear without the engine running, does NOT cause the the boat to be underway by power under any definition of the law or rule, hence, is NOT a power driven vessel. to maintain your status as a sail boat under sail, you can run the main motor, the auxiliary or a genset.... as long as its not being used to help propel the vessel.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used"
the propelling machinery would have to include both engine and transmission.

in this case, it makes little difference what you could do if you wanted to, but what really is being done.

 

[davidmhull]

I want to thank everyone for you input. Sorry about the snipe Stu (it's just my Southern culture I guess). I am either really dense or just totally confused at this point. There is a ton of information out there as you all so kindly pointed out and it really is not but so conflicting. I'm pretty sure at this point that if I mounted a masthead steaming light (not really masthead but that's another story) Then I would probably be compliant no matter what. I guess my main issue at this point is that I really don't want to drill another hole in my mast and run wires on a separate circuit up to a steaming light if my 360 all around light that is already there will suffice. It would seem after all that I have read that this could still be legal. I realize that I would not turn on my stern light in this configuration. I certainly agree that for someone else to be able to see the attitude of my boat they would not want to see more then 360 degrees of white light TOTAL. Sooo 360 degree all around on the masthead plus nav lights under power. Turn off the masthead light and use the nav lights and stern light under sail. Oddly enough one of the reasons that I bought the motor I did is because it has a charging circuit although it is not electric start. There is a possibility that I would want to idle the motor just to charge the battery while I am sailing at night. This brings up an almost comical catch 22 situation that some of you guys brought up. I'm not even going to go there. Again, I really do appreciate your help. I'm trying to combine some possibly confusing rules with some common sense. As Stu stated, it's about safety and other boats knowing your course at night.

 

[Rick Webb]

Sounds Like You Figured it Out

There is very little likelihood that anyone would hassle you for displaying lights for under power while you are under sail. Do not however expect anyone to give way because your are a sailboat. Yes, it is not the proper configuration but ....