Question about nav lighting

Rick D · Nov 2, 2014

I'll have to disagree with disagree-able ;-)

centerline said:
i'll disagree.

a light at the masthead is very easily seen under all but the foggiest conditions, as well as anywhere else you my have it mounted. with the exception of a light mounted elsewhere and you happen to be approaching from the opposite direction with the light being in the eclipse of an object such as the mast or sail...

and if you are close enough to the vessel that it is out of your upper peripheral vision, then you are very likely close enough to the vessel to actually see it even in the darkest of nights.... and if it is a night with absolute darkness, the masthead light will catch your eye easily...

in addition, many, many times the fog hangs on the water about 10-15ft thick... with the masthead in very clear weather, and a light shrouded in the fog cannot be seen very far, but one that is above the fog and is visible from above has a much better chance of being seen than a hidden one....

sometimes the fog is layered a bit higher and the hull can be clearly seen, but the rigging cant.... and a light isnt going to be seen unless its less than 5ft from the surface of the water....

and if its a complete white out with fog, a light has little use. and if its a clear night, then there is no problem...

ive NEVER seen the time or condition where the coach roof/boom area of a vessel was visable but the hull and mast were not.... the fog just doesnt layer that way... its either the lower portion of the hull or the upper section of the mast.

so no matter what theory you want to argue, it doesnt matter, because 2 conditions will dictate whether the light can be seen or not..... the weather and how observant the "look out" is....

personally I want my light above the fog in the best place for a fisherman or ferryman to see it, as that is where they are located when looking out their wheelhouse window.
too many times ive seen the layered fog, and i know for a fact in these conditions a masthead light is better.

Where I moor in Catalina has both a mooring field and an anchorage. LOTS of times people will go through the mooring fields on a no-moon night and with no urban lighting and more boats around than you would find in a typical anchorage, might well hit you before they see you. Especially when they are distracted, finding their way through the moorings or looking for one, etc. So, an anchor light just isn't in the right place, which is why most will put some LED's near the coach roof or pulpits.
So, I really think local conditions dictate and your results may vary. Same reason I tossed the idea of a masthead navigation light after scaring ourselves several times overlooking a tacking boat near a finish line at night flying a masthead tricolor that simply wasn't where you were looking. Perfect for offshore, not good in close.

jibes138 · Nov 2, 2014

Download a copy of the Navigation Rules from this website and study them. They will provide the lighting requirements for your vessel as per the Code of Federal Regulations.
http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/navigation_rules.aspx

One item of interest I noted in replacing my anchor light recently is new LED fixtures for the masthead that have two sectors for the white light. It can be lit just as a stern light or lit all around for either an anchor light or to show as a combination steaming and stern light under power.

Stu Jackson · Nov 3, 2014

davidmhull said:
Thanks so much for all the replies.

1. It is obvious that there are some differences in opinion on what is the best lighting configuration regardless of the rules.

2. The example on the far right would seem to indicate what the emails to the USCG confirmed. Nav lights in the bow and an all around masthead light would be appropriate. Thanks again for your help.

1. Opinion should have nothing to do with the answer to this question, and I am appalled at the various "interpretations" offered here.

2. The picture is the WRONG ONE. It is for a powerboat. You have a sailboat. Go find the picture of the sailboat. Use that one. An anchor light (repeatedly and mistakenly called a masthead light) is NOT the same as an all around light for a powerboat, their heights are completely different. If you use that incorrect arrangement, some folks will think you're at anchor with your running light still on - seen that stupidity happen, too.

Why not just do it right and stop blaming the guy who built your boat?

rufus1138 · Nov 3, 2014

something important to note, there has been lots of confusion locally where I am lately, if you are out on the water and moving in a sailboat then the 360 masthead or ANCHOR light should not be on, period, no discussion, now if the sails are stowed and the boat is moving under aux power (motor) then you must have a stern light and a "steaming" light, or otherwise some way of projecting 360 white light below masthead height for anything over approximately a 30ft mast. the other thing to remember is that if the sails are not stowed, if there is any canvas in the air that is driving the boat THAT IS YOUR PRIMAIRY MOTIVE FORCE AND YOU ARE SAILING, NOT MOTORING. I don't care who says what if a sail (or sails) is up on a SAILboat, then you are sailing, not motoring, not flubberdeeegubbing, not anything other than sailing, when sailing you need the standard forward green/red and a rearward facing white. again, if you have any form of airfoil above deck level that is making the boat move and is stowable and it is currently deployed then you are sailing.

shemandr · Nov 3, 2014

The fact that a relatively simple question can get so many responses which differ is evidence that the gov light rules are archaic, confusing and ineffective.
With regard to those who responded with phrases like "Could suffice," or "Substituted for," you can bet if there's an accident with injuries or damages, the legal system will take a great interest in how your lights were displayed. And I would not be comfortable having to admit to my insurance company that I had an alternative lighting set up.
If you don't think accidents happen between sailing vessels, there was an accident at night on the Sound a couple of years ago that involved sinking and loss of life.

Stu Jackson · Nov 3, 2014

rufus1138 said:
now if the sails are stowed and the boat is moving under aux power (motor) then you must have a stern light and a "steaming" light, or otherwise some way of projecting 360 white light below masthead height for anything over approximately a 30ft mast.

That's WRONG, too. It is NOT a 360 degree white light below masthead. It is a stern light and a steaming light, one faces aft the other forward.

What is so blinkin' hard about this?

Ron20324 · Nov 3, 2014

Stu Jackson said:
1. Opinion should have nothing to do with the answer to this question, and I am appalled at the various "interpretations" offered here.

I agree with Stu. OPINIONS: NO; FACTS, YES. As I point out in post #11, get an official publication from the CG. Google them, and you'll find alot of info. Even Chapman's has a real good source. But, if "the man" stops you, he will laugh if you show him a copy of this forum- maybe even including the CG email response. It is a known fact the IRS gives out erroneous information, but does not hold itself accountable for the wrong information. Don't subject yourself to missinformation and fines- go to the source, which is what you should have done at the start- emails excepted. And remember, your boat is less than 23 feet, and that's a different situation than most replies have addressed- mine included.

Bm3moose · Nov 3, 2014

Rule 25 states exactly what you need and what you don't. The words to look at are MAY and SHALL. Just google USCG nav. rules and go to the Navcen website. Here's the gist You can either have a red and green and a stern light A stern light is not an all around white light. You can combine the red green and white in an all around light at the top of the mast 25c says you MAY in addition to your red green and white put two all around red and green lights on the mast but you can't use these with the tricolor light on the mast. The red goes on top green bottom. 25d(I) this states that a Vessel less than 7 meters SHALL if practicable exhibit 25a or b but if you're not running those then an all around white light. I do not interpret this to mean you can have an all around white light while you're running red green white combination. For anchor if you're less than 7 meters and not in a channel fairway or where other vessels navigate you don't have to have an all around anchor light. Otherwise you do. I would recommend it being at the top of the mast so it's visible 360 degrees. You MAY also illuminate your decks so that they may be seen. I am a former Bosuns Mate in the Coast Guard. I aced the Navrules test in school and the sailboats are always the trickiest. The point of the lights is to identify the aspect of the vessel and or whether it's anchored. If I see a red and green light I know I'm head on. If I see just white I know I'm astern or possibly approaching at anchor. If I see a white and a red green over top I know I'm approaching a sailboat from astern.

This masthead light that's being confused as anchor light is all wrong. A masthead light shows forward and to the sides and is used under power. If you are under power as in you are using your motor, You are no longer sailing. There is no light schematic for motor sailing, there is a day time shape for larger vessels that you MAY display. Rule 25 spells it out. Trust the rule and NAVCEN.

Stu Jackson · Nov 3, 2014

David, the issue is your safety and the ability to get the right information. Don't know how being cordial has anything to do with it.

Ron's right if your boat is smaller than 7m. And the other things he said in his last post.

http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Navigation-Light-Rules Not that hard to find.

It's still not that hard.

Sunbird22358 · Nov 3, 2014

David, your 22 will need lights for under sail and lights fro under power.
LUKILY, they are not that different. Here is a basic description of what I have on my DS II: Red and green sidelights (mine are on the sides of the cuddy to avoid any possiblity of getting covered by the sails). A white 135deg sternlight on the transom, and a 360 deg white light o na 4' tall pole located at the stern. I have 2 switches to control the lights, one turns the red and green sidelights on, the other is a 3 position toggle switch, with position one (center) being off, flip it one way and the 135deg white sternlight comes on, flip the other way and the 360deg white light comes on.
I use the sidelights whether under sail or power, the 135deg sternlight is for under sail and the 360deg light for under power (can't use both at once by design and that is proper).
In addition to acting as my "under power" sternlight and masthead/steaming light combo, the 360deg light is also my "anchor light". If I could have figured out how to run a wire up inside the mast I would have had a 360 light on the top of the mast instead of this..... but, the pole light works OK on my boat. The steaming light (or 360 light if used under power) MUST be at least 39" higher than the red/green sidelights.

On a Power-driven vessel less than 39.4' the "steaming light" 225deg (AKA "masthead light" though rarely at the masthead on a sailboat) and the sternlight (135deg) MAY (and most often are on powerboats) be combined into one 360deg white light carried at least 39" above the height of the sidelights. A masthead "anchor light" can be used as this 360deg light and on most small powerboats the 360 stern/mastlight is used as the anchor light.

Basically, you can use the same basic setup on a 22 as I have. On our old CAL 21 we had the lights similar, but did have a steaming light juat above the spreaders and our anchor light was a 360deg white light that we hung off the forestay, about 6' up.
The rules state that the red and green lights can be separate or (if under 39.4') can be combined into a single fixture on centerline. So, your red/green light combo is OK as long as it is not blocked by the sails or anything else. (funny, but most boats with blocked lights are powerboats, not sail!)

I have scanned the page from my USCGAUX Vessel Examiners Manual below, I think it may show the options best. (24 years of experience as a VE ,40+ years of sailboat ownership)

rufus1138 · Nov 3, 2014

Stu Jackson said:
That's WRONG, too. It is NOT a 360 degree white light below masthead. It is a stern light and a steaming light, one faces aft the other forward.

What is so blinkin' hard about this?

it has to be visible from 360 degrees while motoring, if it takes 50 lamps to do this then it takes that much.

SailingHarry · Nov 3, 2014

Stu Jackson said:
2. The picture is the WRONG ONE. It is for a powerboat. You have a sailboat. Go find the picture of the sailboat. Use that one. An anchor light (repeatedly and mistakenly called a masthead light) is NOT the same as an all around light for a powerboat, their heights are completely different. If you use that incorrect arrangement, some folks will think you're at anchor with your running light still on - seen that stupidity happen, too.

Stu,

When he is motoring, he is a powerboat. That picture is correct when he is motoring.

COLREGS, here: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf Rule 23d (International) or 23c (Inland) specifically allow, for power boats under 12m (about 39 feet) a single all around light instead of two separate lights. Neither rule makes any reference to height or fore/aft position. A 360 degree light at the masthead is not a "technicality" or an "interpretation" of an acceptable answer -- it is absolutely, 100%, clearly what the rules allow for. In fact, if this is NOT what the rule means, what DOES that rule mean?

Rule 3 (Inland and International) defines a power driven vessel as any vessel driven by machinery -- without regard to existence of a mast, or sails, or an ability to sail, or if the sails are up or down.

Harry

Alan Gomes · Nov 3, 2014

Stu Jackson said:
David, the issue is your safety and the ability to get the right information. Don't know how being cordial has anything to do with it.

Ron's right if your boat is smaller than 7m. And the other things he said in his last post.

http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Navigation-Light-Rules Not that hard to find.

It's still not that hard.

"Sailboats with sails up during the day, but which are also under power, must fly a black 'steaming cone,' with its point downward, where it can be seen."

Does anyone actually do this? I can't remember ever seeing it!

SailingHarry · Nov 3, 2014

Actually, COLREGS makes fun reading. The Annex I (around page 130) talks a lot about placing. The masthead light (AKA Steaming Light) must be as far forward as practical and must be in front of amidships. There is lots of discussion about vertical placement, but it all serves to limit how LOW the masthead light can be -- there is no discussion about how HIGH it can be.

SailingHarry · Nov 3, 2014

Alan Gomes said:
"Sailboats with sails up during the day, but which are also under power, must fly a black 'steaming cone,' with its point downward, where it can be seen."

Does anyone actually do this? I can't remember ever seeing it!

I actually have. But it was on a Navy owned sailboat, and they are fastidious rule followers.

Sunbird22358 · Nov 3, 2014

Alan Gomes said:
"Sailboats with sails up during the day, but which are also under power, must fly a black 'steaming cone,' with its point downward, where it can be seen."

Does anyone actually do this? I can't remember ever seeing it!

I have only seen it on the large Sail-Training vessels (aka "Tall Ships") when under way in parades of sail.

The cone isn't required on vessels under 12Meters (39.4'), although they MAY display it. In my experience, if I ever did display the cone, no one would know what it meant anyway!

centerline · Nov 3, 2014

SailingHarry said:
Stu,

When he is motoring, he is a powerboat. That picture is correct when he is motoring.

COLREGS, here: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf Rule 23d (International) or 23c (Inland) specifically allow, for power boats under 12m (about 39 feet) a single all around light instead of two separate lights. Neither rule makes any reference to height or fore/aft position. A 360 degree light at the masthead is not a "technicality" or an "interpretation" of an acceptable answer -- it is absolutely, 100%, clearly what the rules allow for. In fact, if this is NOT what the rule means, what DOES that rule mean?

Rule 3 (Inland and International) defines a power driven vessel as any vessel driven by machinery -- without regard to existence of a mast, or sails, or an ability to sail, or if the sails are up or down.

Harry

I will further agree that a light at the masthead or one mounted 4ft below the masthead or at deck level, from a distance on a dark night, no one is going the know where the light is mounted or how high it may be.... until your close enough to the vessel to get some idea of how big the vessel actually is... and than it still may not be possible to tell if the light is coming grom the top of the mast or at some point further down on the mast.... it will depend on the visabilty/weather....

rufus1138 · Nov 3, 2014

SailingHarry said:
Stu,

When he is motoring, he is a powerboat. That picture is correct when he is motoring.

COLREGS, here: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf Rule 23d (International) or 23c (Inland) specifically allow, for power boats under 12m (about 39 feet) a single all around light instead of two separate lights. Neither rule makes any reference to height or fore/aft position. A 360 degree light at the masthead is not a "technicality" or an "interpretation" of an acceptable answer -- it is absolutely, 100%, clearly what the rules allow for. In fact, if this is NOT what the rule means, what DOES that rule mean?

Rule 3 (Inland and International) defines a power driven vessel as any vessel driven by machinery -- without regard to existence of a mast, or sails, or an ability to sail, or if the sails are up or down.

Harry

in regards to the boats being discussed here (sailboats, especially those of us titled and registered as sailing vessels) the primary means of moving the vessel is the sails, so if the sails or any airfoil (rigid wing sails etc) are in use then it is sailing, no questions asked, the machinery driving the vessel is listed as an aux power source, so again, if the sails are present then it is sailing and subject to the sailing light requirements, ie keep your sails up while moving and follow the lighting rules for sailing.

Question about nav lighting

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