Owning a boat sucks!

sinnettc · Jun 7, 2009

Sorry to hear you lost that cleat. Makes me wonder if you had some hidden rot there or if you got a huge wave.

Have you got rubber snubbers on your lines? Might be worth adding them to help cut the shock loading on your cleats.

Chris

cbsailor · Jun 7, 2009

Revise your dockside seamanship or relocate?

Sorry to hear of your damage. Sounds like you are getting way too much wave/wind action in your current docking. Are you getting lots of storms or lots of wave action from passing boats? It may be time to revisit your method of tying up or even reloacating to a different slip. Since your neighbor is experiencing damage too, I'd be talking to the dockmaster about a safer slip.

Scott T-Bird · Jun 7, 2009

Do you need to make sailing easier?

Hermit, you've made it sound before like you get a lot of wave action and wind at your slip location. That is a serious problem that you may need to re-consider. Also, based on your experience, you may have bitten off a little more than you want to chew ... and please don't take that as a harsh criticism. Not all boating needs to be as challenging as you have made it. I know finances are an issue, but you should consider how much enjoyment Jeannette is going to get out of this before you ruin the whole experience for her.

When we bought our boat, we could have kept it on the coast where I would have preferred, but the lake was a lot more convenient (as in ... we can spend a few hours on the boat anytime we like without devoting a whole day to it), the lake is far less intimidating for my wife to learn about sailing (who also had no experience when we got started), the freshwater lake is great place to jump off the boat for refreshing swimming for us and all our guests at any time (we don't have any worries about what might like to snack on us), and I haven't applied a single coat of bottom paint in 5 years, the bottom needs a scrub with a soft scrub brush about twice a season to knock of a little algae slime, and our prop is always shiney! I'm just mentioning this to make you a little jealous! The drawbacks are lack of space to sail, explore and cruise, and this year we have lacked water to put the boat in due to the 5-year drawdown and a dry winter and spring. My goal was to get my wife enthused so that we could move to a location where sailing will take us further away. We're about to make that move because we are SO ready for it. Here's a bottom that never needs cleaning or painting. Let me know what you think of my bird decal ... it's supposed to be an intimidating mythical Thunderbird ... instead it looks like a sparrow hawk or a cardinal with blue wings (when the picture was taken I hadn't removed the backing paper).

I'm only mentioning this because I think you have mentioned that you have a long drive just to get to the boat. This is normally for people who really have a commitment to it. You may have options that could make sailing a little more fun to get introduced to. I know it is a little late to change direction, but it might not be a bad idea if you are having thoughts that this is more trouble than it's worth ... at this point in your development of a love for sailing, it MAY BE, needlessly, more trouble than it is worth.

Andycan · Jun 7, 2009

look closer at your neighbor

I would be looking harder at your neighbor and the damages he has. I am amazed how other people bump into, scamper on or otherwise abuse their neighbor's boats or the docks while attempting to get in or out of their slip. Fortunately, my neighbor has not damaged my boat but it ticks me of when I see shoe prints on my deck close to his boat. I feel your pain!

Ken Honeycutt · Jun 7, 2009

Re: look closer at your neighbor

Just to commiserate or whatever, I watched today one of the most horrifying events almost transpire since I've owned my boat. A stinkpot was towing another stinkpot at probably a 10 to 15 knot clip through our mooring field. The boat in tow obviously had no steerage since his engine was out of commission. Anyhow, I stood there watching as the boat in tow was headed STRAIGHT FOR THE BACK OF MY STERN *&! Just at the last second the wind or what ever picked up just enough to where he missed my stern by probably half an inch. If he had hit the back of my boat at that speed there's no telling how much damage would have been done.. may have even holed my boat. I told the admiral I bet if he had hit my boat without me being there that he would have never reported the damage if he was able to get away without anyone seeing it.

catsailor · Jun 7, 2009

Re: look closer at your neighbor

Try grease or lanolin on the prop and shaft until someone gets you a better idea. You can do it in the water. It will help.

I have always picked a slip WAY up the creek. If it truly was a wave, MOVE. Funny how the "new" marinas are often in exposed spots the old salts left undeveloped.

If it was a collision, there should be marks. Sometimes tide is to blame, but I don't think you get much tide, do you? Or could there have been something the way of an unusually sustained on-shore wind?

And if you don't use spring lines, start. They really cut down on horsing around, give redundancy, and reduce strains. My old boat didn't need them, my new boat does. The best way to see how she rides in the slip is to spend some nights in her, observing how she moves with the tides and winds.

And as always, pictures would help.

sailingdog · Jun 7, 2009

I would like to hear more about the broken docklines... since they're likely responsible for the rest of the damage. Also, how did the port aft cleat get torn away—how was it attached to the boat?

txtowman · Jun 7, 2009

and to think i was fixing to get a slip there. you need to make that move to port A asap!

txtowman · Jun 7, 2009

PLEASE don't get discouraged the work you have already done is proof you are serious about sailing, I am a newbie sailor myself(1.5 years) trust me it will be worth the pitfalls you are experiencing now. I just don't know how I could stop sailing now. It is like a drug, and I need my weekly "fix". best of luck and I would be happy to exchange phone numbers with you. just send # in a private message.

I hope to be down to CC very soon for at least a couple days, and maybe you and jeannette can come sail on my catalina 22 with me.

txtowman · Jun 7, 2009

WOW it takes a lot of force to sever a 1/2 inch dockline

Joe · Jun 8, 2009

move to another slip.

sailingdog · Jun 8, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
I don't know how it was attached. It looks like two bolts through and through, probably just washers on the back given the construction of the rest of the boat. The other stern clete was loose and it wasn't last time I was there, neither one of them were loose. It is possible the neighbors boat broke loose and hit my boat and caused that clete to come off. I have a bumper on that side, I didn't see any damage on either of our boats in that area. Given that both his bow cletes are gone it is possible. The cored material looked bright and dry. I don't think there was any previous water intrusion.

I would recommend you go and find out how your other cleats are secured to the boat. If they don't have some decent backing plates, that should be a priority. Please note that cleat is spelled CLEAT, not CLETE, which is not a word in English AFAIK. Using the right words makes discussions much simpler.

BTW, decent cleats should be 16x the diameter of the docklines normally used with them. On a 30' boat, 8" cleats are a minimum IMHO, which would allow you to use two 1/2" docklines per cleat typically. Going up to a 10" cleat would make a lot of sense if you need stronger docklines, since a 10" cleat can accept two 5/8" docklines, which might not fit an 8" cleat.

The first dock line to break was when the marina owner helped tie up my boat. I had some pretty new 1/2" anchor rode that I was tying it up with, he said since I was new at this he would have his helper tie it up. That guy used some rope looked pretty old. But one of my new 1/2" lines also gave way when that one did, or at least it gave out before I got back. This time another 1/2" braided line was broken and some one tied it back together like they had last time.

Was this nylon or polyester line? Nylon dock lines have a much higher elasticity than do polyester lines, which is why polyester and high-tech lines should not be used as docklines.

BTW, I seriously doubt that wind alone caused the line to break, given that a good nylon dock line, 1/2" in diameter, has a breaking strength of about 7500 lbs. for three-strand and a bit higher for double-braid.

A more likely cause of failure is chafe or failure due to internal friction. Using hose-type chafe protection can vastly increase the likelihood of nylon line failure from internal friction, since it can prevent water from getting to the rope and lubricating/cooling it—which is why I generally recommend using woven cloth chafe protection gear.

Another possibility is if the lines had bowlines used in the place of the eye splices normally used in docklines, that may be a cause of failure, as the bowline reduces the strength of the line by up to 60%, unlike a splice, which can retain as much as 85-90% of the line strength.

I have the stern lines tied to the big winches until I get back down there to repair the clete area and replace the other while I am at it.
The wind is friggin ferocious. But there are hardly any tides to talk about.
I didn't bring the camera, I asked my wife but we left it at the house.
Is there a good way to make snubbers? I seem to recall seeing one where a rope spiraled around a rubber piece.

Be careful when using the winches as attachment points for docklines. I've seen winches ripped off the boat because they were being used that way, and the loads were in the wrong direction for the winches to resist properly. In one case, I've seen the winch take most of the coaming off the boat because the loads were lateral rather than longitudinal to the boat. Adding that kind of damage to what your boat has already sustained would really suck.

Tbird-Are you suggesting I quit because I am experiencing difficulty? I hope you are not a high school guidance counselor. lol Do you have a pic of the tbird with the backing pealed off?
I got a sailboat because I want to go places in it. If I couldn't have a sailboat in a body of water that I could sail to the caribbean in, I wouldn't even own a sailboat. Different sailors like different things. I would find little enjoyment in a sailboat in a lake. I would never race my sailboat either. It appears most on here race to some extent, I just don't think I would enjoy it.
txtowman- I sent them my $100 and I am on the list. I am going to call tomorrow and see how far back I am. I have been putting it off becasue I fear it will be longer than I want.

Roger Long · Jun 8, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
Is there a good way to make snubbers? I seem to recall seeing one where a rope spiraled around a rubber piece.

You can buy special rubber pieces that the rope goes through and spirals around. They work well but are a bit expensive and make handling the lines a pain.

What works well, better actually, is to take regular bungee cords and attach to the middle of the lines and lead off at a 90 degree angle to some tie point. Spring line bungee's can often be attached to an aluminum toe rail or other point on the boat. The bungee cords permit a lot of travel and really quiet a boat down. The geometry is such that impact shock on the lines is almost eliminated.

Chafe of the line if you use the regular wire hooks can be a problem. I put regular bungee's on for short term use such as storms but you would probably want to make up sets with smoother and larger radius hooks for long term, unattended use. You'll also need to double them and attach a long rope tail in many cases.

I used to be in a double slip exposed to a lot of wake and prevailing wind. I put a cleat about 3/4 of the way across the slip on the main dock. A spring line went from the off slip side to this cleat with a double bungee with a snap hook on the middle of the spring line and a rope tail through the bow chock to a cleat. An additional dock line was lead from the cleat to the bow just tight enough to hold the bow off the dock. The boat lay very quietly and the fenders almost never touched. My dock neighbor had no problem with the set up. I also had the rubber snubbers on my bow and stern lines.

Scott T-Bird · Jun 8, 2009

There is much to learn, Hermit!

Seeing as your heading was about how much sailing sucks (I know it was tongue-in-cheek), I took it as an opening to talk about your sailing dreams rather than the mechanics of holding your boat in a slip so that it isn't beat to sh!t in a wind. Seeing that Corpus Christi is known as one of the windiest stretches of coastline any where in the US, I can imagine how an exposed location is difficult to deal with. Even on our small lake, I have seen boats in the 22' to 27' range that take a beating in slips when the wind is sustained, even without the combination of waves. A mooring is normally far less expensive and far easier on a boat. That might be something you might consider even though it is also less convenient.

Am I right that you drive a long distance to get to your boat? What I am saying to you is for conversation and not intended to be overly critical. It sounds like your dream to sail to the Caribbean may be over-riding any real interest in sailing. You have owned this boat for about 9 months now and still have not raised sails and are still trying to break Jeanette into sailing by taking short motor rides away from your slip. I know that you have dived into the maintenance projects, which is all well and good, but they have to be tiresome for you and particularly for Jeannette, I would suspect, given all the time you may need to drive simply to accomplish some small task on the boat. Now you are going backwards in regard to boat projects and I concur that you had better find some other solution than securing your boat with the winches. They will be ripped out as well if you have to suffer another blow.

You and Jeannette are still new to sailing, yet you are taking on boat projects and attempting to sail conditions that are far more challenging than most new sailors need to endure. You may have a full head of steam for it but I also suspect that you will only enjoy sailing if Jeanette is there to enjoy it with you. You might want to consider that it is at least as important to ensure that Jeanette gets enjoyment out of boat ownership and sailing so that you can both eventually realize your dream to sail in open spaces. You can take it from just about anybody on here, you are not going to find enjoyment or fulfill your dreams by beating your head on the breakwater wall. When you can find enjoyment in sailing in some peaceful surroundings that are condusive to learning, you will be closer to your dream.

I'll take a picture today ... we are finally supposed to be launched for the season. It has been a long wait. I admire your enthusiasm and I get your sense of humor, too! I am looking forward to some posts from you that describe your sailing experiences ... I am wishing you and Jeannette the best!

catsailor · Jun 8, 2009

What ever we have said, we all feel your pain....

Roger Long said:
You can buy special rubber pieces that the rope goes through and spirals around. They work well but are a bit expensive and make handling the lines a pain.

What works well, better actually, is to take regular bungee cords and attach to the middle of the lines and lead off at a 90 degree angle to some tie point. Spring line bungee's can often be attached to an aluminum toe rail or other point on the boat. The bungee cords permit a lot of travel and really quiet a boat down. The geometry is such that impact shock on the lines is almost eliminated.

Chafe of the line if you use the regular wire hooks can be a problem. I put regular bungee's on for short term use such as storms but you would probably want to make up sets with smoother and larger radius hooks for long term, unattended use. You'll also need to double them and attach a long rope tail in many cases.

I used to be in a double slip exposed to a lot of wake and prevailing wind. I put a cleat about 3/4 of the way across the slip on the main dock. A spring line went from the off slip side to this cleat with a double bungee with a snap hook on the middle of the spring line and a rope tail through the bow chock to a cleat. An additional dock line was lead from the cleat to the bow just tight enough to hold the bow off the dock. The boat lay very quietly and the fenders almost never touched. My dock neighbor had no problem with the set up. I also had the rubber snubbers on my bow and stern lines.

(these are coments on the original thread, not the above quote - oops)

If it is really that rough, move to a calmer marina. This one sounds like is going to age your boat prematurly.

Also, REALLY look at the tie-up and dock lines for chafe protection and surging. Snubbers can help, but if the boat is moving in such a way to be really "hitting" the lines, something is not right. All of the sring-line an related comments are worth consideration. SD is dead-on re nylon tubing for chafe. And I wouldn't DARE use the winches for tying-up. SD was right there too. Regarding the cleats, if they came out they were wimpy to start with. You are going to have to up-grade that design, which will require some serious glass and backing plate work.

I do look at the ways my neighbors tie-up. I can remember at least 3x when a nearby boat came loose. Once, the only thing saving me from major damage was a guide rope I had run from the dolphin pier to the dock; he was resting on that. Thought I HATE going on another persons boat, I have when a seldom-visted boat was an obvious and imidiate threat. I have added lines and then gotten them on the phone or sent an e-mail. Better, get them out there, but do something. And if you can get a good neighbor to watch your lines, that is good too.

Scott T-Bird · Jun 8, 2009

Oh, BTW ... snubbers are good for holding your boat secure in calm conditions and subduing the motion in moderate conditions. They are worthless in the type of blow that you experience in an exposed location. There is no way that rubber stretch cords are going to take the strain from an 8,000 # boat in a 30 knot blow with 3' chop driving your boat against the pilings for a sustained period of a few days or more. Nylon rope is your only security and your cleats are going to take the full load no matter how you arrange your snubbers.

Dean5735 · Jun 8, 2009

Go buy 10 brand new dock lines and use them all at the same time!! It may take awhile to get them all adjusted to work together. I do this everytime I leave the boat. It takes a good 1/2 hour of pushing and pulling on the boat to see how the line tensions need to be to work together. Get some 25' lines so you can run spring lines from along way away, criss cross everything. Get some new big bumpers too!
This is a pretty big investment for all the above but look at your boat, you decide
Dean

Stu Jackson · Jun 8, 2009

Move the boat

really, you are in a horrible location. If you kept parking your car in a particular space, day after day, and kept getting it dinged, wouldn't ya move it?

Motoring the boat around is fun, but WAIT, ya ain't seen nothin' yet until ya put the sails up, turn the engine off and start to smile, ear to ear.

"Don't give up the ship!"

Owning a boat sucks!

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