Owning a boat sucks!

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Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
This is the sort of chafe protection SD was speaking of.

I bought the cleats today. They appear to be the same kind in the saildog's pic above. These are 11 3/4" long. I like it that they have flanges to mount them instead of just holes through the middle, like the one that ripped out.
What are the twisted C shaped things near the cleats? I have one on the fore deck of my boat. Why would I have just one?
Also how do you criss cross lines with out going over the boat and chaffing it?
Saildog is the a pic of your trimaran? I have climbing gear, I will take some of the nylon tubular webbing with me in the morning.
The same sort of webbing will protect the gel coat. 1" tube webbing works up to ~7/16" line. Then go to 2" webbing.
 

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Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
As for the lines, this is how a catamaran wold do it.

The same sort of webbing will protect the gel coat. 1" tube webbing works up to ~7/16" line. Then go to 2" webbing.
You can do the same on the stern, but not so much on the bow.
 

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N

NC-C320

Crossed Stern Lines

Hermit, exactly how you cross your stern lines will depend somewhat on where the cleats are on your boat and where the pilings are relative to the cleats. You may have to position your boat in a particular position relative to the pilings to acheive satisfactory crossed lines. You keep the boat in such a position by using spring lines...lines that go from a midships cleat (if you have one), or from boat's stern cleat going forward to a piling or cleat on the pier, and a second one going from midship cleat or bow cleat going aft to a cleat or piling on the pier. On my current boat, to get crossed stern lines, the lines actually start out from the stern cleats in board the boat and pass through an opening in the push pit (stern rails) to pilings or cleats on the pier. You will want to position the boat with the spring lines such that the stern lines will not pull against the stern rails as this will be a chafe point and the rails/stanchons are not designed to take such loading. I also passed the lines through the stern rail openings in a similar manner with my previous boat also. But, if the slip is long enough, you might be able to pass the lines outside the stern rails...it just depends on your particular situation. When you tie the lines to the dock cleats or pilings, tie one side perhaps a foot or so higher than the other side. Make this higher line on the side towards where you expect the wind most of the time. This will cause the crossed lines not to rub/chafe each other when both are under load. Chafing gear at the crossing gives extra protection. The stainless rub strips that were mentioned are good protection to the gel coat provided that are no burrs or rough spots where the lines contact the strips. However, I don't use them...my lines pass over the gel coat and I've never had a problem with wear in 30+ years with two boats. Also, I don't have the chocks and don't really like them...just my idea. I don't like them because the lines normally make a turn at the chocks, sometimes very abrupt turns, which I believe results in another stress/line chafe point. Tie your lines with as much slack as your slip will allow, but keep in mind that in high wind conditions, the lines will stretch quite a bit. Also, tie the lines on pilings so that the lines cannot slip down the piling...if so, they tend to work down and then jam, which can cause lines to go tight in high water/rough conditions. This could then lead to pulled out cleats, broken lines, and damage to rubbing gelcoat under high tension.
Since you have already had broken lines, I would use at least two lines at each stern and bow cleat. You will give up some shock absorbing ability for the lines to stretch, but you will have higher holding power and a second line in case one fails. This is my normal tie up.
(My pier is known locally as Suicide Alley by lots of others in the marina, all of whom have moved to other piers that are a little more sheltered. I like this pier and thusfar, haven't had any damage. But I will put on extra lines in a minute if rough weather is expected....for hurricanes, that means 26 1/2 inch lines. I also tie to multiple tie points on the boat and pilings. On the boat, that means to shackles added at the bow stem plate, to midship cleats on the genoa track (if you don't have midship cleats, I recommend them..either permanent ones on the boat's rail, or the sliding ones on the genoa track. Shaefer made mine, but they have gotten really expensive, and Gauhauer (go to their website to order) and West Marine have alternate designs. I also tie to the primary winches during hurricane conditions, although lots of people seem afraid that the winches could be ripped out. Try to fix it so all lines in a given direction load up evenly. Lastly, when you get your lines adjusted like you like, use tape on the lines to mark the proper length if you are adjusting the length on the boat. This will make each docking easier.
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Re: Magic Splicing tool

Go to search at the top of the page. Type in Magic Splicing tool and you will get a picture and instructions. Phil could probably sell these for 20 bucks each but I don't know if he'd be able to live with himself charging that much for something so cheap and easy to make.
Someone recently posted all the uses for a coat hanger on board a boat, good ideas, here is another one to add to the list.
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
for chafe prevention i use either firehose or levis--the legs are excellent after the pants no longer are wearable the material is still excellent for antichafe....
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Owning a Boat is awsome!

I went to the boat Saturday morning and stayed until Sunday evening. I watched the tides and looked carefully at how other boats are tied, where they are in the marina, and if there was any dock damage to their boats. I moved closer to a breakwater wall but stayed on the same dock I was on. My prop is so caked with barnacles, I didn't have enough power to fight against the wind so I didn't want to venture deeper into the marina and chance getting blown into some one else's boat.
The pics show how I tied up the boat this time. I think all this that happened is good because hurricane season is upon us and I had no idea how to tie this thing up for rough weather.
The nylon 1/2" double braid I bought at Academy sports store is worthless. (I will post another about that) I bought some 1/2" nylon twisted there that has done alright so far. I used the twisted for the spring lines along the sides. The bow lines are doubled the stern lines are single 5/8". As you can probably see in the pics the spring lines are one rope that is pulled kind of tight compared to the bow and stern lines. I have them on a cleat that is on the head sail track along the top edge(gunwhales) I believe. I am not sure if I can trust those, are those tracked based cleats ok, or will they rip off.
It looks like I can slip the spring lines off and leave them in place while I am out, and when I come back hook them back up. Am I thinking along the right lines for this or should I have individual lines for the spring lines?
 

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higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,708
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
All of us here have our boats safely tied up. You have one of two scenarios: Either your marina is unsafe or you are not tying your boat up properly. Your options limited.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
cleats

NC-now that you mention the lines slipping down and ripping the cleat out, I believe that is exactly what happened to my boat! When I pulled the line off that ripped out the cleat, it was all the way down in the water.
This time when I tied the boat up I used 1/4" line that is tied to a nail way up on the piling, the other end is tied to the stern line to hold it at just the right height and to keep it from slipping down again.
The one pic is the big cleats I mounted. I put them in a differnet place so they are easier to tied to, won't chafe anything and I didn't want to mount over a repaired hole. You can see the repair in progress behind the big cleat. I ground it out, tapered it, put tape over the underside of the hole and started filling with chopped strand and poyester. I forgot a sanding pad so that is as far as I got this week.
The old small cleats were mounted with two 1/4" bolts and washers as backing plates.
The other pic is where the last 1/2" nylon braided line broke. That is a bowline type knot still tied to the bow cleat. It is broken about 4" away from the knot. The other bowline type knot tied to the bow cleat on the the other side of the boat had a knecked down section in about the place 4" away from the knot. It was getting ready to break.
When I bought those big cleats, there was no price on them. I asked how much they were and the salesman said $4.96. I asked him if he was sure, he said yes. Anyway I bought all they had which was 4. I have 2 more and after tying the boat up this time and reading about the midship spring lines I was thinking of mounting them midship. I was going to replace my bow cleats but the spring lines look like they could take more force that the bow lines. Where do you guys think I should place them midship or bow? I could always move the bow cleats back to the midship.
By the way, just sleeping on the boat makes me like it much more. I got my main galley cabinet remounted and I can cut the counter top now. I pulled the old toilet and am going to rebuild it. And I found out where "that smell" was coming from. There was still nasty water in the hose to the toilet.
Jeannette didn't ever like being in the boat, she always felt sick. But she was so tired from working the day and night before that she wanted to take a nap and I already had the vberth made up, so she took a nap for like 3 hours. The wind was blowing right into the hatch too and it wasn't rocking the boat too much. She said it was awsome sleeping in there today and she didn't feel sick at all. That gives me hope that she will one day love it like I do.
 

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Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Well, the cheap braided line from Academy Sports proved to be false economy. We can only hope the three-strand is a better quality, but I wouldn't bet the boat on it. I believe I posted earlier on this thread that the line around the pilings should be located at the mid-tide height of your cleats. I have 6 feet of chain around my pilings, then shackled to thimbles in the 3-strand. Large lag bolts with fender washers support the chain at the prescribed height. The chain has a caternary effect like in an anchor line, and the chain takes the chaffe of the piling- not the rope.

In recognizing that you WANT the dock lines to stretch some, my preference is for 1/2 inch lines. The 5/8 is a bit large for what you might need, but going larger in your case may prove to be the best idea.

Glad to hear the missus is coming around. :dance:
 
N

NC-C320

Mid Ship Cleats

My Schaefer track cleats are rated for 2500 lbs for 1" track, 4500 lbs. for 1 1/4" track and, given direction of spring line loading, track should take loading fine. If your cleats are comparable to the Schaefer cleats, you should be fine to use these for spring lines.

I notice that your stern lines are not crossed, but your slip is relatively wide, so if you don't have significant water level changes, you will probably be ok without crossed lines here, but it's a good option to have if you plan to cruise. In an earlier post, someone suggested that you might have interference from stern ladder in crossing lines. If you two extra large cleats, I suggest that you mount them at the stern where you can cross the lines, either outside the stern or through the push pit rail without rubbing on the ladder or other gear as I discussed in my previous post. If you are in a place with a narrow slip and high/low water (as in tides or wind blown tides in bad storms, you will need the ability to go up and down in the slip a significant amount. Crossed lines will allow this.

The braided line you had obviously was inadequate...it is not double braided nylon as is normal for dock lines. It looks like a cheap knock off where by much of the production process, including probably fiber type, has been skipped. You have a West Marine in Corpus Christi...go by and look at their line. It is expensive, but it will stay with you. SailboatOwners.com has line also...don't know their pricing.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
The longer the spring line, the better, but you don't want it in such a postion that it will constantly chaffe the hull. If you can move that track cleat to the widest beam width, you'd do better. If your cleat is how I picture it, realize there is probably only one pin (maybe 5/16 inch, to allow for movement on the track?) holding it in place. That's not much holding power. Obviously, when a storm is predicted you'll beef up all of your lines, but you could also extend the forward spring on back to a winch and snug it up to reinforce the track cleat.... On the stern lines, if they're crossed, you can hang a loop or two of line from the stern rail so the dock lines do not fall below the ladder and catch on it. Leaving the ladder up is what it looks like you have done? Good option.... My C30 slip neighbor put a large cleat just behind the anchor locker, center of the deck, to secure his anchor rode. It would work for extra dock lines as storm condition call for.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,248
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I'm not a fan of track mounted cleats.

Personally, if I was in a high wind, high load location like you, I would not use track mounted cleats. I think deck mounted tracks are mounted specifically for sheet blocks where the loading is generally up (not sideways), and are not intended for cleats. I know they make cleats that can be applied to a track but I would use those for convenience only in light or moderate conditions. With the way you have sustained winds, I would use 3-strand nylon dock lines on deck mounted cleats (with backing plates) only. The spring lines have to be tensioned enough to keep your boat from surging against the lines. I suspect that with bow and stern lines only, you had sustained surging, possibly being borne by only one set, until they failed. It's important to reduce the repetive loading, by securing the lines so they all participate equally (as near as you can make it). It takes a lot of practice and experimenting, especially in your circumstance where the wind is a greater factor than most people have to deal with.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Ron- if you look in the starboard side picture, that was a concern I had. I tried tying it up with some 1/4" rope but then I took it off. I thought if the wind shifted it could put force on that 1/4" rope.
That heap of a boat next to mine is a double masted sailboat with no standing rigging. There are these poles that are bent and seem to mount kind of like a spar but they contain the sail from the outside instead of the sail being attached to them. The brand boat appears to be a freedom. It has some awsome looking self taiing winches, I am going to find out who owns it and see if they want to sell some parts.
 
N

NC-C20

Track Cleats

It looks like your genoa track is mounted on top outboard edge of boat's deck. If you decide to not use track cleats, take care where you mount permanent midship cleats. Depending on your sail useage, you will need to be able to move track car/sheet lead along this track. A permanently deck mounted midship cleat must not conflict with the sheet function/movement. Spring lines are general are fore and aft, so the loading is not going to be much different on the track than when sailing with jib..the track will take it. As for the cleat pin, it will be loaded in shear...as I said earlier, Schaefer says a safe working load of 2500 lbs. on 1" track on theirs, much more if track is 1 1/4". That means breaking strength is probably in the range of 5000 lbs. doesn't it, assuming a safety factor of 2. Use whichever you think is best.

Freedom is a high end boat using unstayed masts, wishbone boom. The two mast version (ketch) used only mainsails, no jibs. To bad it is neglected.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
I thought about the interference of the track cars when mounting the midship cleats, but I don't have those yet, so I am not sure how much room they need. These rails are 1" wide. But if I move them too far in, it looks like i will be tearing my toes up on them.
I know some think I am making more to do with this than is necessary, but my boat was getting tore up and I didn't know how to stop it. I put too much work into it to see it get more tore up.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Looking at the starboard picture: can you move the bow line to the left to another cleat, or would the marina allow you to install another cleat out there? It would give you a better sideways lead on that line, more athwartships.
 
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Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
I can install another cleat on the dock if I want. I had to repair the port bow cleat. I didn't have a washer so I drilled a hole in a quarter.
What is the benefit of moving that line out away from the boat?
NC- I am sure if you wanted that boat you could have it for practically nothing. I want to see inside it. I think the owner of the marina owns that freedom.
 

Manny

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Oct 5, 2006
983
Hunter 82? 37 Cutter Wherever the wind takes me
Hermit - why don't you back in?

Just curious, how come you nose the boat into the slip, doesn't it make it harder to get on or off the boat?
This winter I kept my boat on a slip similar to yours and had a problem with crossing the stern lines due to the stern rail design and also having an outboard. Hopefully you can see in the picture how I worked it out using two bungees. Might be helpful if you have a similar situation.

Manny
 

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Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
I can install another cleat on the dock if I want. What is the benefit of moving that line out away from the boat?
.
Spring lines limit fore and aft movement. Bow and stern lines limit side-to-side movement. It's hard/impossible to limit side movement when the line comes from the front (not the side) of the boat.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Just curious, how come you nose the boat into the slip, doesn't it make it harder to get on or off the boat? Manny
It looks like in this slip just bringing the bow in first is a challenge. I believe he said the wind is usually on the nose in the slip? The wave action will be less on the bow than it would on the stern.
 
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