Oh NO! - Not Again!

[Roger Long]

disacembly is required and that is usuall the hard part as some are crimped shut and not bolted together.

That appears to be the case here. I've talked to Ploener's in Willmington who deal with Yanmar starters all the time and the fellow seemed very familiar with this model. The solenoids are not generally rebuilt and no replacements are available for this engine but he may be able to clean and adjust it. He has also located two replacement starters that can be here in a few days.

As for the luck part, Chesapeake City is a great place. Dockage is free and the dockmaster just told me they never kick anyone off when they have mechanical or health problems. It's a wonderful little town and I'm not bleeding being here. I'm trying to resist the restaurants though in view of my third major mechanical expenditure in as many weeks.

A friend is driving up from Oxford to take me to Willmington. It should only take 1-2 hours while we look around town for them to determine if my starter can be saved.

 

[Captandrew]

I am following with great interest. I have a 2QM20 and have similar issues. My starter, even with a new battery will often click quite strongly, but I usually have to hit it a couple of times before the starter actually engages. Unlike yours, mine has not completely failed even after several years. But my recent use is not very great either. I have previously installed a cable to the decompression lever and always use it for starting, as I believe this reduces the load on the whole system. I have started the engine with an almost flat battery this way. I wish it was possible to install the hand crank in my installation but it is not physically possible.

 

[Shoaldrafter]

A bad battery can give you proper voltage at rest, but as soon as a load is applied the voltage will drop significantly. Based on your symptoms, I would consider a battery or wiring problem, either are a pain but not serious. Chuck

Roger said, "12.73 volts and 95% SOC on the battery monitor" and "new battery cables last year."

But he did not say how old battery is! From his discription sounds like classical battery failure. One bad cell failing under load.

Can we try another battery? Only $300 bucks...

Ed K

 

[Roger Long]

But he did not say how old battery is! From his discription sounds like classical battery failure.

Brand new last spring, never discharged below 80% and kept charged by all the motoring I do.

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Sounds like classical battery failure. One cell failing. Try another battery.
Ed K

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Under load you should still have 13+vdc...

Ed K

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Roger said, "kept charged by all the motoring I do." Humm, maybe alternator not putting out right voltage? Trying a known good battery might tell us that. Do you have a plug in battery charger available?

Ed K

 

[bigpapaporsche]

If I understand the situation correctly, you have a Yanmar Diesel. In one of the previous replies the "Old Yanmar" starting problem was brought up. The Yanmar Diesels do have a history of mysterious starting issues, that can be fixed by installing a secondary solenoid that is available through any Yanmar dealer. I experienced a problem on our 10hp Yanmar that sound similar to your. The addition of the second relay, made a big difference in the way the starter cranks.

 

[DeniseO30]

Roger I'm pretty sure you may already know about Collie's He hand delivered a Racor filter to me a couple years ago when I needed it badly. Just another plug for the goodness that is so very had to find these days.
Collie's Marine Rv Supplycolliesmarinesupply.com
(410) 885-2455 -

 

[Bill Roosa]

If it clicks loudly that may not be enough to actually engage the high amp circuit. The solenoid does two things, first (with a much weaker spring rate) it engages the pinion gear into the engine flywheel gear, then (against a much higher spring rate) it pulls the high amp contact together to spin the starter. What you may be hearing is the pinion engaging but not the high amp contacts.
A “click and not turn” verses a “click and turning of the engine no matter how small” The former being what normally happens on hunters as the control circuit degrades.

The only way to really test this is to probe the solenoid control wire for voltage while attempting to crank the engine. This requires either a helper or a splice connector and long wire going from the solenoid to the engine panel/helm and back to the battery negative.
You splice into the control circuit at the solenoid, run the wires from the battery negative and solenoid to the helm/engine panel by the easiest route and connect a volt meter between them. Depress the start switch and note the voltage.
If you have a helper then just probe the solenoid control terminal directly and use the engine as a ground reference. Note that the person doing this will have to accommodate the engine moving a bit if the starter kicks in.

The “I’m about to be mowed down by a tanker and REALLY need to get the motor started RIGHT NOW” solution is to take a screwdriver (I prefer flat blade) and short between the high amp terminal on the solenoid and the control terminal. The wire can be off the control terminal as it is getting current from the high amp terminal when you do this. You should practice this at the slip after dark to become familure with the procedure when there are no lights.
NOTE: You will get a hefty spark when you close the circuit and the engine will shake a bit so holding the connection can get tricky (hence the need to practice)

Oh yea, don’t get wrapped up in the other rotating parts while you do it either. This is entirely unhelpful to all on board during an emergency and you will receive NO kudos for getting the engine started but having to go to the hospital to sew back on the missing finger tip.

 

[Roger Long]

Oh yea, don’t get wrapped up in the other rotating parts while you do it either.

This is why I didn't try this diagnostic. I can just reach the starter terminals at extreme arms length with my arm pressed on top of the alternator.

I just had a long talk with Mainesail and we went over my battery history, the voltages I saw before and after the failure. I turned on some pumps and we looked at the amps and voltage drop. He doesn't think it's my batteries either.

I also check my voltage periodically while motoring and my regulator (dumb) keeps them right at the optimum voltage. My long motoring periods aren't likely to be the problem.

The last time the engine turned over properly before the progressive failure began, it did so very sprightly and normally. The battery monitor voltage after the progressive failure was practically the same.

I talked to the starter shop again. I'm ordering the one brand new starter left in the national supply stream which they can have there by about 11:00 tomorrow. Even cleaned and coaxed back into life, he says my 40 year old unit won't be one I should trust my life to as I often do. $300 bucks, cheap insurance. If my old one can be fixed, I'll have a spare or an Ebay item.

 

[Daydreamer]

Roger.

I use a digital volt meter for most of my troubleshooting.
Though not specifically familiar with your starter, if the solenoid is mounted on the starter motor this should help figure out what is wrong. Even if there is a remotely mounted relay / solenoid the test will be the similar.

On the solenoid where the cables attach, there are probably two large lugs and one small one.

One large one should come directly from the battery B+, and read 12v + on a volt meter. When the starter button is depressed and the motor is turning the voltage will actually drop to about 10.5v due to the load. If it drops less than 9.5v and I would look for a bad connection or battery.

The small lug should read 12v when the starter button is pressed. If not I would start tracing back through the switch / button circuit.

The other large lug should also read battery voltage when the starter button is pressed as this is the connection the solenoid is supposed to make.
If the solenoid clicks and there is no voltage the solenoid is probably bad.
If there is battery voltage and the motor does not turn, the motor is probably bad.

Hope this helps.

One more thing to check is for a bad ground. Connect a volt meter from the battery B- to a clean bare metal on the engine block or even a starter bolt. Press the starter button and check the voltage. Any more than 2.5v indicates a bad ground connection.

 

[tailwind]

Reminds me of when we needed to get more juice to the solenoid on our old Chevy V-8's. Just reach down with the handle of a Crescent wrench to engage the starter solenoid. We didn't have to do it every time, because that would help rotate the contact disc. Eventually we would remove the starter and turn the disc over (when they still used nuts instead of just riveting) and we were back in business.

 

[Shoaldrafter]

one brand new starter

I usually keep my cars and trucks a long time. Everyone eventually needed a new starter motor.

Rebuilding is done at independent local guy who rebuilds motors and alternators at his convenience. It still will not be cheap. Might just give it away for copper unless new one is made in China. Then I would rebuild the old one too.

I wish my motor had a hand crank...

What is dockmaster saying?

Gee, this boat will be a reconditioned one by time it gets home...

Ed K

" Sailboats are equipped with a variety of engines, but all of them work on the internal destruction principle, in which highly machined parts are rapidly converted into low-grade scrap, producing in the process energy in the form of heat, which is used to boil water; vibration, which improves the muscle tone of the crew; and a small amount of rotational force, which drives the average size sailboat at speeds approaching one knot."

This is why I didn't try this diagnostic. I can just reach the starter terminals at extreme arms length with my arm pressed on top of the alternator.

I just had a long talk with Mainesail and we went over my battery history, the voltages I saw before and after the failure. I turned on some pumps and we looked at the amps and voltage drop. He doesn't think it's my batteries either.

I also check my voltage periodically while motoring and my regulator (dumb) keeps them right at the optimum voltage. My long motoring periods aren't likely to be the problem.

The last time the engine turned over properly before the progressive failure began, it did so very sprightly and normally. The battery monitor voltage after the progressive failure was practically the same.

I talked to the starter shop again. I'm ordering the one brand new starter left in the national supply stream which they can have there by about 11:00 tomorrow. Even cleaned and coaxed back into life, he says my 40 year old unit won't be one I should trust my life to as I often do. $300 bucks, cheap insurance. If my old one can be fixed, I'll have a spare or an Ebay item.

 

[Granfalloon]

Remote Starter -

You'll never lack for drama as long as you check this this forum.

My engine seemed a bit reluctant to start this morning but it felt like I just hadn't pushed the starter button firmly. After walking around town, I remembered and decided I should check it out.

Pushing it firmly got the engine going but it cranked reluctantly. It started quickly as soon as it turned so it's a starting system problem. 12.73 volts and 95% SOC on the battery monitor so that isn't it. I opened up the panel and bypassed the push button switch. It isn't the switch.

Three tries and it got slower each time. I could hear the solenoid click solidly. Starter was rebuilt just last spring.

Now, there is nothing but the solenoid click when I push the starter button. I'm stuck here at the public dock.

Let the speculation begin. Any local knowledge on mechanics familiar with older Yanmars appreciated.

I have had similar problems on my Hunter - Yanmar 2GM20F - I'm pretty sure is the wiring. If you replace with thicker wire - it should do the trick. I couldn't figure how to route the wire so I used a remote start switch (under $10). Worked so well I made replaced the alligator clips and hard wired to the starter. It works flawlessly.

PS

Not a bad idea to have one of these anyway.

Ken

 

[DeniseO30]

seems to me when contacts (if I remember right) are not fully contacting you can tell by putting a voltage meter on each side. (I have a fluke digital too ) If it's zero the contacts are making fully. and if not you will get a reading from zero up to the full voltage. (been awhile since I leaned over an ac unit)

 

[packman]

To me, sounds like the sillynoid, at one time you got one field repair by flipping the disk and rotating the high amperage contacts 180 deg, don't know about this engine though. Good advice about checking your ground cable but I didn't see where you checked voltage drop across the solenoid. Grandpop always told me "You dingbat!, you have to check and prove every section of wiring as you go or the 'lectrical gremlins will poop on your parade"

 

[JoeWhite]

Here is a simple test if you think it is the solenoid. Simply disconnect one of the battery cables from one side of the slenoid and temporarily touch to the other side. If it starts - then the contacts are bad. You do not have to depress the started button.

 

[packman]

lots of arcy sparky when you do that though, might be a little exciting folded around the motor to reach it, also doesn't engage the pinion gear

 

[Roger Long]

lots of arcy sparky when you do that though,

If you folks could see where this starter is in my boat, you would know why taking it out and having it tested is the easy route. If there turns out to be nothing wrong with it, then I'll start looking at the wiring. Remember, it was all re-done last spring.

The over riding issue is that this 40 year old starter has started the engine almost every day and often more than once a day since July. That is a lot of starting cycles, probably more than most sailboats get in a lifetime of use just this year alone. Starting with a brand new one for $300 seem like something I would do even if I wasn't having problems. Even if I find that the problem is somewhere else, I'm not going to regret this purchase a bit, especially with starters for these engines getting rarer.

BTW, my usual source for parts told me $1000 + and about 6 weeks for delivery so I'm feeling pretty good about Ploener's finding one for $300 with 24 hour delivery in less than an hour of searching.