Oday 39 racing

May 1, 2019
31
oday 39 39 Jacksonville fl
Was wondering if anyone else out there was racing the Oday 39? I feel it is a pretty quick boat, that sails very well. What has your experience been with racing the boat? I've raced PHRF for years and but since switching to the Oday 39 I am having some difficulty doing well in the races I have done. Short of replacing the sails which are in excellent condition, I am not really sure where to go from here to get the speed my handicap requires to do well. There is definitely room for improvement in most areas (starts, tacking) but at this point I don't think I am racing any sloppier then anyone else on course.
Thanks
 
May 6, 2010
472
1984 Oday 39 79 Milwaukee
This is our first (partial) season with our 39. We don't race, but the occasions we have had to sail I have been pretty happy with the performance. If you tune your own rig, I'd be curious what settings you are using?
 
May 23, 2016
217
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
One thing is that with an old boat it will behave sloppier than it might have when the handicap was established... How is the riging? Dacron or higher tech? When was it last tuned? By whom?
 
Mar 29, 2017
576
Hunter 30t 9805 littlecreek
Took me 5 years of trying before I figured out the racing thing and started beating other boats. Try to steal experienced crew And learn how to tune rig. Also clean bottom and empty boat helps too
 
May 1, 2019
31
oday 39 39 Jacksonville fl
Thank you for the replies.
As far as the rigging it seems to be in good working order, I have gone thru measured for straightness and checked to make sure the tension on both sides it the same, she seems to sail pretty similar on both tacks. I did bend the mast back a little (about 2") because I thought the main may have too much luff curve ( about 7 inches, which I have yet to get a good answer from anyone on to see it that is good or bad) but I think this is was unnecessary, as we don't get much weather helm until about 18knots, and I did this after a race we had where it was gusting to 30knots all day 20+ all day and I had bad weather helm, and had a hard time flattening the main. But I don't usually sail in that kind of wind, so I have pretty much set the mast back straight again maybe 1" of bend. The recommendations I have got is to keep it straight, tight forestay and no slopping shrouds on the leeward side. How tight do you set your for and fore and back stay I have an old tension gauge, not sure it will give me an accurate number read but I can use it compare it to the shrouds?
The sails are Dacron with a full batten main, loose foot and 135 roller furling jib. I am not in love with them by any means but that is an expensive investment and am trying to make sure I'm not missing something first. Also I don't think they look to bad when trimmed. They are still crisp, I don't think they are too stretched out. I am only guessing this because the previous owner didn't use the boat and I have had it for 2 years now and have probably only put 100-200 hours on them. (Couple Bahamas trips and about 10-15 races) I have been working on getting quotes for new sails. It has also been recommended I send these sails in and maybe look into seeing if they need "a tummy tuck"(this is from one the most experienced sailors in our location). My thought on that is I would rather buy a new sail then spending 500 bucks to fix this one, and again I'm not having the weather helm issues. Although the last race we had about 10knots wind and I ran everything pretty loose (Mainsail foot, halyard and jib halyard,) I did get some luffing (more then I am use to seeing) in the front part of the main (in the luff curve area of the main) when pointing I wasn't able to trim it out with the sheet and traveler, but the tell tales flew nicely. So the main may be the issue.
As far as experience goes I have been racing in these same races for about 15 years now on a Pearson35 which I shared with my Father and weather I raced that boat, or he did, or we raced together we did always did really good( I would say 1st or 2nd most races). To top it off we always raced that boat with the dingy hanging off the davits didn't care about weight at all, just kept the bottom clean and did great, now on my new boat I am dumping water tanks leaving everything on the dock, and the Pearson sails right past me the dinghy hanging off the back. In the old Pearson per handy cap should be a slower boat, the Pearson has a 226 rating and I am 174, and the sails on that boat are the same size as mine and are at least 12 years old now (we never did any rigging tuning on that boat). So that boat is really my biggest comparison besides a few others I have sailed against for years now. I don't consider myself a great racer by any means other the other hand I also don't think I am a total novice either, but the performance I have been able to get out of this boat in these races is becoming a little discouraging, and the races I have traveled to my finishes are really quite embarrassing. I know this boat is quite a bit different then the Pearson and I am still learning it. I even bought the Northsail racing book and there are always areas where I can improve, but I didn't find anything I have been doing wrong in the book. It might be that this boat requires a lot more adjustment for conditions and is more sensitive to weight then I am use to. The other thing is I think I will probably need to start flying the spinnaker especially for broad reaching conditions, although I would really like to dial in the non spin before adding that to the equation.
I have lined up a couple people from the my race community to sail the boat with me, I might find some answers there, but in the mean while I thought I would reach out to this community and see if I can get some input, also see if anyone has had much luck sailing racing this boat. As far as a cruiser I think the boat is excellent and I think it could be a quick racer as well just thinking maybe these sails suck or I'm really screwing something up.
I know this is a lot so again thank you for your input an time.
Henry
 
Jun 2, 2007
403
Beneteau First 375 Slidell, LA
Once you take care of the obvious things like bottom condition and sail trim (make sure your genoa sheet leads are set correctly), I have found that the hardest thing to get right when racing a new boat is finding the right sailing angles upwind and downwind. That is, upwind is it better to point or foot? Do you have a regular fin keel, a shoal keel, or a wing keel? Downwind, is it better to heat up or soak down? And of course the answers to these questions vary with wind speed, but it will take some time and experimentation to get better. If you're racing non-spin, I would definitely suggest rigging a way to get the genoa sheet leads outboard to the gunwale (and a little forward) when broad reaching. I promise it will make a difference.
 
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May 1, 2019
31
oday 39 39 Jacksonville fl
I have played with the tuning some. The recommendation I have gotten is to keep the mast straight.
All I have done is just the basic setup where which you can find online. Sight up the mast for straightness or use a string. Use a halyard to measure from the top of the mast to either side of the boat to make sure the mast isn't leaning side to side. Look at the leeward shrouds when sailing side to make sure they aren't sloppy loose. After that I do have a tension gauge and have set the shrouds to the same tension, but it everything looks straight you will most likely have the same tension or be very close.
I haven't messed with raking the mast on this boat. I don't have much weather helm at all in winds under 15knots so it is probably ok . For the forestay I just I tightened the head stay so my furling wasn't sagging too much up wind. I have bent the mast but have since put it back because I don't think on this boat I would need to bend it till like 20+knots.
So that is all I have really done there are plenty of YouTube videos on that.
As far as cruising I think the boat is awesome, and it sails well, I bought it in NC brought it down to Florida and made 2 three week trips to the Bahamas the boat has been great for that. But I have been doing the club race thing for about 15years now, I think it adds a lot of fun to sailing, but since getting this boat am not doing as well as I was expecting, so I am working on that.
 
May 1, 2019
31
oday 39 39 Jacksonville fl
Sandy,
Thank you for the input. I have the shoal draft keel which is great for my area, but does hurt my upwind performance. The genoa sheet leads are kind of interesting, and is definitely something I need to play with more I feel like I have them set too far back (flattening the foot and causing some twist, but if I move them forward the sail shape doesn't right like the sail has a huge belly and cannot get it flat. Maybe the jib is stretched out, not sure.
For the outboard jib sheets, I have as you suggested tried keeping an extra set of jib sheets outboard for reaching and I think I did set it more forward, but I have only tried it only a couple of times but probably need to make that a habit. After I talked to some of the other boats in the club that I have raced against they said they have done it but most don't do it regularly because of the hassle, so I figured the change may not be enough to really make the difference, but I will work on making that a habit.
As far as wind angles for upwind I ride with the puffs and lulls to maintain always trying to maintain good speed, so I pinch up to get a better angle, when a gust hits and fall off when it subsides and with the pinch we usually see some increase in speed. Maybe I should keep the boat on a straight course and work the traveler during the gust to increase speed, I'm not sure which is the better philosophy in that scenario that is just the way I have always done it. Downwind I kind of do the opposite fall off with the gust and point in the lull, again trying to make the most speed.
 
Jun 2, 2007
403
Beneteau First 375 Slidell, LA
I'm sure you already know this, but the generally accepted way of setting the genoa lead position is to sail upwind closehauled, then slowly turn into the wind while watching the telltales. If the upper telltale breaks first, meaning the leech is too open, move the lead forward a little. If the lower breaks first, the leech is closed (which can give the appearance of too full of a sail), so move the lead back a little. Many people move the lead back a bit in strong wind to depower, or forward in very light wind to get more power at the cost of pointing ability.

Do you feel like you are losing more time upwind or downwind? There's a guy in my club who can give me fits going upwind, but has trouble keeping his speed up downwind. The outboard jib lead really helps in this situation, and you make the same adjustments with fore and aft lead position as you do upwind, watching the upper and lower telltales. Do your best to keep the leeward telltales streaming, easing the sheet out. Of course, the main should be way out - many people don't ease it enough. The trick is to keep your speed up (which brings your apparent wind forward) without steering too far away from the mark.

My apologies if I'm just telling you what you already know.
 
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May 1, 2019
31
oday 39 39 Jacksonville fl
No apologies, I appreciate the input. These are all great points, I think I have this dialed in pretty good but it gives me something to make sure double check my next time out, and this boat might not be as forgiving on trim as the old boat was.
I cannot say for sure I am having issues more upwind or down seems to be all both. It is seems to be a faster boat up wind although pointing is limited by the shoal draft, and I do see other boats that I feel shouldn't be pointing as well pointing just as high as me if not higher. I have had races where it has been one or the other though and other, for sure. But trim our trim has been getting better with each race and we do seem to be improving some, but it's been a pretty slow improvement with no big light bulb moment yet.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,039
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
It sounds like you know you need a new jib. While the jib may be fine for cruising, if you can't flatten it you can't point with the fleet. At a SA/Displacement of around 215 this isn't a "Racing boat" - Especially with a winged keel. I would try footing a bit going upwind to maintain speed and never, ever let the sail plan stall trying to pinch a boat that simply can't pinch. Remember you are racing your rating not so much the other boats.
I like to cite the example of my friend who has a Seafarer 23 rating somewhere around 270. But he drives that boat like it's a part of him. He usually finishes last or close to it. Due to PHRF corrections he's got so many trophies he's run out of places to put them. The adage locally is "If you can still see xxxxx, he's beating you."
 
May 6, 2010
472
1984 Oday 39 79 Milwaukee
Henry,

Your observations about your mast are different than mine. I have tensioned my shrouds based on percentage of breaking strength and my mast has quite a bit of bend, more than the two inches you cited. To straighten the mast I would need to make the aft lowers higher tension than the forward lowers which goes against everything I thought I knew. I also feel like I could tighten the backstay more as the roller furler seems to have a bit more sag than I think it should in moderate wind. I don't want to tighten the backstay more because of the bend I already have. When I haul out in a couple weeks I think I will drop the mast and see if there is any adjustment in the forestay.
 
May 17, 2004
5,026
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
To straighten the mast I would need to make the aft lowers higher tension than the forward lowers which goes against everything I thought I knew.
I thought it was ok to run the forward lowers at relatively low tension. I thought their main purpose was to prevent mast pumping/inversion, and a lower tension to do just that was ok.
 
Jan 13, 2009
391
J Boat 92 78 Sandusky
The Oday 39 rates around 120 for a SD in PHRF NE. Various credits for JAM, roller furling, fixed prop can boost that up. You have a lot of issues to get the boat to perform to rating. The SD model needs to be sailed flat to go upwind. Lots of railmeat helps make that happen. Do you have a feathering prop? In under 12 knots of wind a fixed prop is not worth the credit. Backstay adjuster? You probably need one to get appropriate upwind headstay tension. Low stretch halyards. On a 39 footer polyester double braid will stretch quite a bit. Minimum of medium tech VPC in 10mm or larger to solve the stretch problem. Rigid vang. Definitely helps in getting leach tension on those reaches. Outboard sheeting. Need it for reaches. Then comes the big ticket items. Sails . Looking at your specs your sail plan is huge. Most dacron sails will stretch a lot considering the size they need to be for the 18,000lb of boat. Guarantee that your current sails are stretched out after a couple of years. Racing is not inexpensive. The size of your boat makes it very expensive to be competitive. Remember, nothing goes upwind like money. Sad but true.
 
May 1, 2019
31
oday 39 39 Jacksonville fl
The Oday 39 rates around 120 for a SD in PHRF NE. Various credits for JAM, roller furling, fixed prop can boost that up. You have a lot of issues to get the boat to perform to rating. The SD model needs to be sailed flat to go upwind. Lots of railmeat helps make that happen. Do you have a feathering prop? In under 12 knots of wind a fixed prop is not worth the credit. Backstay adjuster? You probably need one to get appropriate upwind headstay tension. Low stretch halyards. On a 39 footer polyester double braid will stretch quite a bit. Minimum of medium tech VPC in 10mm or larger to solve the stretch problem. Rigid vang. Definitely helps in getting leach tension on those reaches. Outboard sheeting. Need it for reaches. Then comes the big ticket items. Sails . Looking at your specs your sail plan is huge. Most dacron sails will stretch a lot considering the size they need to be for the 18,000lb of boat. Guarantee that your current sails are stretched out after a couple of years. Racing is not inexpensive. The size of your boat makes it very expensive to be competitive. Remember, nothing goes upwind like money. Sad but true.
Great Post, Thanks. They have me rated at 174 nonspin and 153 spin. I have replaced the halyards with low stretch line. No backstay adjuster, fixed prop, and non rigid vang. I did run the outboard sheets, in my last race for the reach, need to get up to the bow and look at the telltales more during the reach to really see what is happening. I think I am starting to get more speed out of the boat, I am also finding falling off a bit, keeping the sails looser and working more to speed vs pointing seems to be helping and really staying on top of trim constantly, then using the gusts to get further upwind. I'm going to add a couple photos my daughter randomly took with my phone, not sure if they will be worth anything.
I appreciate your prospective on the racing and money thing and I agree. My issue is our races most of the boats have sails just as old as mine if not older. I know on my dads boat his jib is 17years old and I think his main is at least 12 and they have seen a lot more miles then mine have, and he's beat me by handicap (220) (not hull) the last 2 races. So all that said leaves me to think the issue lies somewhere between my tuning, trim, or me, not so much bad sails, although they are not great.
I hope to take more pics and video next race maybe they will be helpful.
Thank you
 

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Jun 2, 2007
403
Beneteau First 375 Slidell, LA
Sounds like you're going in the right direction, keep it up. Nothing like time in the boat (I don't want to think about how long it took to win a race after buying our current boat). I don't think the main looks bad for club racing, although not much roach that I can tell.
As far as the outboard jib sheets, we usually have a crewmember trimming from up on the windward side almost to the shrouds, where he can easily see the telltales. Really a lot like trimming a spinnaker. Also the fore-and-aft position of the lead varies with the course in relation to the wind. You'll get it, a little better every week.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
RE: the pictures of the mainsail... The windex at the top of the mast says you are on a tight reach, and I assume you’d rather be close hauled if you were racing. That shape isn’t very good for pointing. The pictures of the mainsail show a draft that’s quite deep, with the draft too far aft.

If you can’t tune the mast for a better mainsail shape, you will be struggling to sail to your rating.

There’s a specific way to take pics of the mainsail and the headsail so that we can use software to measure the depth of the camber and the position of the draft.


I have software to do this measuring, but I don’t need to measure those pictures to know that those sails won’t get you to the front of the fleet unless you are a super-rockstar racer who can work miracles.

Judy B
Sailmakeri
18E1DA14-BEEF-40E9-BA81-A485BD390148.png
 
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Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA



I found a drawing of the boat showing rig geometry. It’s a mast head Rig with in-line spreaders and in line cap shrouds. based on years of sailmaking and measuring rigs, I’d say that it’s not meant to have much, if any, prebend in the middle of the mast.

(i am assuming the mast is original equipment on your boat.)

On a rig like that, tightening the back stay doesn’t significantly bend the mast and thereby flatten the mainsail draft. Increasing backstay tension increases rake, which n turn tightens or loosens the forestay, which changes draft depth and position of the headsail. (I am assuming the rig is tuned loose enough to rake the mast forward and aft a bit)

Judy B
 
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May 6, 2010
472
1984 Oday 39 79 Milwaukee
I found a drawing of the boat showing rig geometry. It’s a mast head Rig with in-line spreaders and in line cap shrouds. based on years of sailmaking and measuring rigs, I’d say that it’s not meant to have much, if any, prebend in the middle of the mast.
@DrJudyB I have a sister ship to the OP, and I have heard this as well, I am curious what makes that determination? We previously had an O'day 34 and specific rig tuning information for either boat is almost nonexistent.

Scott
 
May 1, 2019
31
oday 39 39 Jacksonville fl
RE: the pictures of the mainsail... The windex at the top of the mast says you are on a tight reach, and I assume you’d rather be close hauled if you were racing. That shape isn’t very good for pointing. The pictures of the mainsail show a draft that’s quite deep, with the draft too far aft.

If you can’t tune the mast for a better mainsail shape, you will be struggling to sail to your rating.

There’s a specific way to take pics of the mainsail and the headsail so that we can use software to measure the depth of the camber and the position of the draft.


I have software to do this measuring, but I don’t need to measure those pictures to know that those sails won’t get you to the front of the fleet unless you are a super-rockstar racer who can work miracles.

Judy B
Sailmakeri
On the day of the pic I was running the main pretty loose to get more power and speed out of it (and I don't think I was doing to bad). It seems if I run it tight (outhaul and sheeted flat) I really loose both is this because the shape is already bad? From my experience (please correct me if I am wrong) if the sail isn't luffing and I am not over powered keeping the sails as loose as possible seems to work best, in about the 10knot range, after that you can either add twist or flatten to depower. Now in sail as loose as possible I do loose some on pointing but the speed difference between the couple degrees gained is a big loss. If the sails are bad is a recut worth it the material is in good physical condition (how much does it cost?) new sails are probably 6-7k. The other question about the main I could never seem to answer is that my main has about 7 inches of luff curve and I am running the sail on a straight mast is that what is causing the issue? Should a sail for a straight mast have any curve in the luff?