New (old) boat, New problems....Electrical and Plumbing...

[rpell1@msn.com]

Hi all,
My newer boat, a 1997 Cat30 MKIII has been presenting me with new challenges as I bring her up to my standards.
My latest is the West Marine 20 amp battery charger. I can't find any specs on this model and cannot get it to work. It's hard wired into the panel and has AC power up to and out of the panel switch. Not being familiar with it, I wanted to ask if anyone has had a NO POWER UP situation with this charger? There is no on/off switch or visible fuse and I don't want to start opening it up if it's a lost cause.

Problem number 2 is a leak (hot water system) coming under the cabin sole, under the engine and into the bilge. This only occurs when the engine is running and there are no signs of a leak near the heater, nor on the engine hose to the hot water tank. It seems to be starting under the deck between the aft storage compartment and the aft access to the back of the engine. Has anyone had a leak like this and if so, was it the heater feed hose?

Thanks all and Happy Sailing,

Ralph

 

[LeslieTroyer]

For the leak if fresh water and not antifreeze I would guess your pressure relief needs changing or you engine is running hot. The pressure relief is located right on the heater.

For the charger I think they rebadge xantrex truecharge. There was no switch in the one I took off / only the circuit breaker. All the DC wire terminals are accessible with out pulling any screws/panels. The AC requires removal of two screws on either side of the Black warning plate(see photo below). First look fo LED showing status. If no lights Check AC voltage By pulling the panel.

 

[jssailem]

West Marine often labels their name on a charger manufactured by another party. Picture of charger, model number, both would help to identify the unit. How old is it? All would help to identify if "it is a lost cause".
The switch is often the AC power breaker labeled "Charger".

As for the leak. Put on your Sherlock Holmes hat and begin tracing all of the lines for water, dampness. You say it happens when you are running the engine. Is it clear or colored. Clear indicates likely from the fresh water in the heater, colored could be antifreeze. How old is the waterheater? Could it be reaching the end of it's life?

 

[rpell1@msn.com]

Thank you Leslie. The engine runs cool. I'm now thinking maybe a tank leak? But, it's only when the engine is running??????? I guess I have no choice but to go exploring with the battery charger.

 

[rpell1@msn.com]

Thanks for the reply. I will have to gather more info on the charger issue. But, I guess I have no choice but to go exploring with it.
As far as the leak. It is clear water. The water heater is the original from 1997 and what throws me is that it's only when the engine is running. The water is running from the area of the heater. I guess I will have to see which hose is clear water and pull it for inspection. Thank you again and Happy Sailing.

 

[jssailem]

Well at 20 plus years it really doesn't owe you anything. I would first look at the pressure valve. Likely also from 1997. Despite our best wishes these things wear out.
Replacement of a pressure valve would be cheap. As @LeslieTroyer said when the water heats up while running the engine you get pressure building. The relief valve is designed to leak the water to relieve the pressure. That way the tank doesn't blow up.

There may be a hose to direct the released water to your bilge. First place I would explore. Next would be each of the clear water hose connections. Perhaps one of the clamps has rusted or at least needs tightening. Of course you might also have 20 year old hoses. They for sure could be cracking with age.

Just the challenges of owning a 20 year old boat. I know. My boat is a 1974. And some of the equipment is original.
It is not if but when.

 

[LeslieTroyer]

The reason for me suggesting the pressure relief is because the water gets much much hotter using the engine over electricity which builds more presssure in the tank.

Les

 

[dlochner]

A guy in my marina had a similar issue with the charger. There are dues inside the charger that we’re blown. Take the cover off ( after disconnecting from AC & Dc cicicuits. Look for a fuse and check it.

 

[rpell1@msn.com]

Thank you. Will do.

 

[rpell1@msn.com]

Well at 20 plus years it really doesn't owe you anything. I would first look at the pressure valve. Likely also from 1997. Despite our best wishes these things wear out.
Replacement of a pressure valve would be cheap. As @LeslieTroyer said when the water heats up while running the engine you get pressure building. The relief valve is designed to leak the water to relieve the pressure. That way the tank doesn't blow up.

There may be a hose to direct the released water to your bilge. First place I would explore. Next would be each of the clear water hose connections. Perhaps one of the clamps has rusted or at least needs tightening. Of course you might also have 20 year old hoses. They for sure could be cracking with age.

Just the challenges of owning a 20 year old boat. I know. My boat is a 1974. And some of the equipment is original.
It is not if but when.

 

[rpell1@msn.com]

This seems the more logical diagnosis since the water coming into the bilge is clear and from its direction. It gives me a better place to start. Many thanks and Happy Sailing.

 

[Ward H]

Hi Ralph,
Hope your enjoying your new C30 despite the additional challenges older boats bring.

I too am puzzled why it only leaks with the engine running. I'm under the impression I have hotter water dockside with the water heated by electric than with engine heated water. Now I'll have to get out my thermal gun and take some comparison readings.

Sounds like you have already accessed both ends of the water heater for inspection.
If not, on my 93 the heater drain valve is accessed by removing the rear qtr berth cushions and removing the wood cover over the fuel tank.
The hose connections are accessed through the drawer cabinet to port of the ladder. I think you can look at them just by removing the bottom drawer. For a better inspection remove all three drawers and 6 screws holding the frame in. Then pull the frame. It comes out easy.
I forget which side the pressure relief is on.

If you rule out the water heater and it's connections, then I would just replace the fresh hot water hose by pulling the old with new attached. They may have tied both incoming cold and outgoing hot hoses together so you may want to pull/replace both at the same time.

Have you checked the coolant level in the engine to make sure your not losing coolant? Couldn't a thin trickle of coolant appear clear?
From your first description of where the leak is coming from, I would suspect the engine hoses between the stuffing box access cover and behind the drawer cabinet. A few feet of engine hose is out of reach there.

Just some more ideas for your search.

 

[dlochner]

Hi Ralph,
Hope your enjoying your new C30 despite the additional challenges older boats bring.

I too am puzzled why it only leaks with the engine running. I'm under the impression I have hotter water dockside with the water heated by electric than with engine heated water. Now I'll have to get out my thermal gun and take some comparison readings.

Sounds like you have already accessed both ends of the water heater for inspection.
If not, on my 93 the heater drain valve is accessed by removing the rear qtr berth cushions and removing the wood cover over the fuel tank.
The hose connections are accessed through the drawer cabinet to port of the ladder. I think you can look at them just by removing the bottom drawer. For a better inspection remove all three drawers and 6 screws holding the frame in. Then pull the frame. It comes out easy.
I forget which side the pressure relief is on.

If you rule out the water heater and it's connections, then I would just replace the fresh hot water hose by pulling the old with new attached. They may have tied both incoming cold and outgoing hot hoses together so you may want to pull/replace both at the same time.

Have you checked the coolant level in the engine to make sure your not losing coolant? Couldn't a thin trickle of coolant appear clear?
From your first description of where the leak is coming from, I would suspect the engine hoses between the stuffing box access cover and behind the drawer cabinet. A few feet of engine hose is out of reach there.

Just some more ideas for your search.

HW heated by the engine will reach the engines operating temp roughly 160 degrees F. The pressure relief valve should be exercised periodically to clean it out ( same for the hw heater at home).

 

[rpell1@msn.com]

Hi Ralph,
Hope your enjoying your new C30 despite the additional challenges older boats bring.

I too am puzzled why it only leaks with the engine running. I'm under the impression I have hotter water dockside with the water heated by electric than with engine heated water. Now I'll have to get out my thermal gun and take some comparison readings.

Sounds like you have already accessed both ends of the water heater for inspection.
If not, on my 93 the heater drain valve is accessed by removing the rear qtr berth cushions and removing the wood cover over the fuel tank.
The hose connections are accessed through the drawer cabinet to port of the ladder. I think you can look at them just by removing the bottom drawer. For a better inspection remove all three drawers and 6 screws holding the frame in. Then pull the frame. It comes out easy.
I forget which side the pressure relief is on.

If you rule out the water heater and it's connections, then I would just replace the fresh hot water hose by pulling the old with new attached. They may have tied both incoming cold and outgoing hot hoses together so you may want to pull/replace both at the same time.

Have you checked the coolant level in the engine to make sure your not losing coolant? Couldn't a thin trickle of coolant appear clear?
From your first description of where the leak is coming from, I would suspect the engine hoses between the stuffing box access cover and behind the drawer cabinet. A few feet of engine hose is out of reach there.

Just some more ideas for your search.

Hi Ward,
Hope the summer is treating you and your boat well? I'm taking your advice and checking out around the heater first. The hoses you describe are exactly where the water is coming from....So, that's first. Since the amount of water is about a gallon or less per hour of running, it can't be too great a leak.....or as previously suggested, a failed pressure relief valve. Either way, it looks like my problem is narrowed to this area. Now all I need is the time to do the investigating. My wife and I got fed up with prepping this new boat, so we took her out yesterday and had a grand old time in 15+ breeze. Well worth the break.

Thanks again to you and all....and Happy Sailing

 

[Ward H]

Hi Ralph, The boat and season are going well. We have many more hour sailing the C30 than we had at this point in the summer on the O'day 25. Wife loves it, most major upgrades are done so easy sailing from here out.

I installed a new fuel sender today and while the compartment was open I took a pic of the starboard end of the water heater for you. Guess my memory was not very accurate as I thought all hoses were on the port end but I was wrong. Only the engine coolant hoses on the port end.
Looks like the hot and cold water hoses run in front of the water heater.
Hope this helps.

 

[jssailem]

I installed a new fuel sender today

Nice Ward... What manufacture did you use.
I installed a WEMA 10" unit in an 11 " deep tank. It at least gives me an indication that there is fuel in the tank or not. Added 30 gallons of diesel in the tank to the 10-15 already in the tank on Sunday. Went to check and the unit read Half Full. Drove the boat for 10 hours. Now I need to look again at the gauge.

 

[Ward H]

@jssailem
I used the Moeller Mechanical Fuel Gauge with the adapter to make it electronic. It was one recommended by Main Sail.
It turned out the unit I replaced was the same one except the electronic sender looked a little different.
My tank was 9 3/4" so I used a sender for 10" tank.
The old sender had a bent float arm. This gave me an idea to wait until the sender shows 1/2. Then dip the tank, measure the level and bend the arm so the gauge matches the level.
The kicker was I found a bad ground when replacing the sender. Would have been easier to just fix the ground but I did get to inspect the tank with a light and it looks very clean.

My concern for accurate fuel level is to know when the tank is full at the fuel dock. The fuel dock attendant, who hands you the nozzle, said the auto shut off wouldn't work on my fuel fill. I just don't want to over fill the tank. Since I mostly day sail I don't need to worry about getting the most capacity out of the tank.

 

[jssailem]

Yes the tank fill is always an issue. I try to calculate the most likely volume to add and then limit to a specific number of gallons. My wife was watching the numbers and calling them out. We wanted 30 gallons. Asked the attendant if she could cut it off at a set number. "No the umps do not work that way" Oh well we will have to watch and count. The comment from the attendant when I went to the shed to pay, "Wow, never seen someone get just 30 gallons on the spot". You've not met a man that listens to his wife...

With lots of capacity I am not filling a tank. I'd be holding fuel in the tank for more than a year.
It is nice to have a graphic answer to "How much fuel is in the tank?"

Here's a picture of the unit I bought.

http://www.wemausa.com/sensors/level-FuelWater.shtml
Need to size the unit to the tank.
I had a float arm unit. It was still working but had a bad ground and a bad switch (that I did not know about). When I replaced the sender, I got a response on the gauge. Then it went away. Knowing I had a good sender I continued the testing till I found the bad switch.The dipole switch is now on the list for replacement parts.

 

[nightowle]

This is a good thread....lots of good info guys. Thanks!

 

[rpell1@msn.com]

Hi Ralph, The boat and season are going well. We have many more hour sailing the C30 than we had at this point in the summer on the O'day 25. Wife loves it, most major upgrades are done so easy sailing from here out.

I installed a new fuel sender today and while the compartment was open I took a pic of the starboard end of the water heater for you. Guess my memory was not very accurate as I thought all hoses were on the port end but I was wrong. Only the engine coolant hoses on the port end.
Looks like the hot and cold water hoses run in front of the water heater.
Hope this helps.
View attachment 155562

Hi again Ward,
Did a bit more investigating on the leak. Turns out it was not the water heater. I had disconnected the fresh water, pulled and connected the engine hoses for bypass. I also completely drained the unit.
The leak only occurs after the engine warms up. No leak when engine cold. There is a small puddling of water under the cabin floor next to the stuffing box compartment where all the hose tees are. Stuffing box not the culprit. None of the connections are leaking and there seems to be no water trail leading to that point. My next attempt will be to try to pull as much of the hoses away from that area to see if any are cracked under the "no see" area I described.