As soon as I get home this afternoon I'll get a pic of the area, it's just inside the companion way and there's a removable wood step in there too.
New member, novice sailor, couple questions
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Just to keep in mind. The shoddy bolt hole can be problematic also because it may be a place for water to get between layers of glass. This can lead to some very bad issues, especially if there is a wood core. Also, if you live where it freezes, it WILL separate the layers more everytime it freezes.
Make sure the raw edges are sealed.
-Will (Dragonfly)
Make sure the raw edges are sealed.
-Will (Dragonfly)
I live in central florida so freezing isn't an issue. Would fiberglass resin seal the bolt hole well enough or is there something else I should use?
There are 2 concerns with a CB pivot bolt. 1) is it secure enough to withstand the forces on it, and 2) can it keep most of the water out.
There is a fair amount of force transmitted from the CB to the CB trunk that should be roughly equal to the force on the sails. There have been several mentions of a backing plate of metal, plywood, or G10 (a compressed fiberglass material) to distribute the loads over a larger area of the CB trunk. This will strengthen the boat, but not necessarily stop water from splashing up and through the holes.
The second issue, water coming up through the CB trunk is normal. Keeping it out of the boat is a different issue. No being completely familiar with the Sanibel, I can't give you a definitive solution, however, I can think of 3 possible approaches.
1) Live with the water splashing up and through the bolt holes. If the holes have tight tolerances to the bolt and there is no exposed wood in the holes, this might be the easiest solution.
2) Use a rubber, neoprene or some such soft washer to seal the hole. This will work, however, be sure there is no exposed wood in the bolt hole.
3) Some CB boats use a gasket to keep water from splashing up through the CB trunk. The Flying Scot is one such boat. The gasket is 2 pieces of heavy Dacron sail cloth that seals the hole. The CB drops between the 2 pieces of Dacron.
If this was my boat, I'd be inclined to pursue the first option. Protecting any wood from water intrusion is important to prevent rot and preserve strength. If that didn't work, I'd got with #2 with #3 being my last choice.
He's right on target there. The first thing I would do is drop the CB out and make the necessary repairs now and not later. If it breaks loose under sail "It's Gone!" it doesn't float. The other thing is how the CB pivots. Chances are it's never been maintenance. It's easy to fix you just got to get rid of the trailer.
1. Go and rent or borrow Small/med Boat stand and jack the boat up till you can pull the trailer out and you're ready to remove the CB.
2. Make repairs to holes and CB pivot holding bracket.
3. Purchase 3 electrical shrink for reinstallation if CB bolts. Just take the end and place over the bolts and shrink it down. Now position the CB ready to go up the bottom. Place the ends of the shrink into the bolt holes. Now from inside of boat pull on shrink and the bolts now come right threw and one at a time put the nuts on. You're Done!
Note: Remeber to install CB holder with 4200 or JB stuff to seal the underside of the hole. If you don't you will be doing this again next spring. Seal under and top and let cure to the max. Capt. Rob
Ok, got pics. Pic #1 is from companion way looking down, rectangular hatch is the port side. Pic #2 is looking to port side at CB trunk hidden under quarter berth. Pic #3 just a slightly closer view of pic 2. I didn't think about measuring the height of foot well area, but guessing approximately 10".
The designer offset the CB 6" to port and widened the port quarter berth to hide the trunk, eliminating the CB trunk being in the middle of the companion way. Unfortunately for me, leaves very little access for trunk repairs.
The designer offset the CB 6" to port and widened the port quarter berth to hide the trunk, eliminating the CB trunk being in the middle of the companion way. Unfortunately for me, leaves very little access for trunk repairs.
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I don't know anything about the sanibel 17/18s. How much does your CB weigh? That bolt just looks small. Do you hear the CB rattling in the trunk? Sitting with the CB up, sailing with the CB down?
You are probably alright and everything is the right size. Like I said, I don't know a thing about these boats. An undersized bolt will allow the CB to rattle and move a lot which works against the bolt, the bolt hole and the base of the trunk, where it joins to the hull. This leads to bending of the bolt, damage to the bolt hole and cracks around the forward section of the trunk. It looks like these boats have a double hull, judging by the access port to the inner trunk. That seems like a great thing, but it makes it hard to find minor structural problems before they become major structural problems.
I don't mean to scare you, just put you in mind of things to think about. Like I said, I don't know anything, just thinking out loud.
-Will (Dragonfly)
You are probably alright and everything is the right size. Like I said, I don't know a thing about these boats. An undersized bolt will allow the CB to rattle and move a lot which works against the bolt, the bolt hole and the base of the trunk, where it joins to the hull. This leads to bending of the bolt, damage to the bolt hole and cracks around the forward section of the trunk. It looks like these boats have a double hull, judging by the access port to the inner trunk. That seems like a great thing, but it makes it hard to find minor structural problems before they become major structural problems.
I don't mean to scare you, just put you in mind of things to think about. Like I said, I don't know anything, just thinking out loud.
-Will (Dragonfly)
CB weighs between 40-60#'s, and there is rattling/clunking in the trunk. Looking in the trunk there is a gap on each side of the CB, like it's missing the washers/spacers. And that bolt still looks small to me. If I've got time when I get home I'll drop the CB for a better look at everything.
For small inexpensive boats slop of the CB in the CB well has been a normal method of production for years. It is normal. Finding ways to redesign such systems has been an activity of many boat owners.
The water slopping up in the CB well has been attacked by modifying the way the CB is held in the boat and adding a way for the CB to slip between a membrane attached to the boat bottom. Both ideas were identified by @dlochner and they work to improve the issue. Note the membrane can get damaged and jambed in the CB well stopping the free movement. This can get in the way of getting the boat out of the water and up on the trailer.
Enjoy the boat it is ok a little water and keep an eye on repair patch.
The water slopping up in the CB well has been attacked by modifying the way the CB is held in the boat and adding a way for the CB to slip between a membrane attached to the boat bottom. Both ideas were identified by @dlochner and they work to improve the issue. Note the membrane can get damaged and jambed in the CB well stopping the free movement. This can get in the way of getting the boat out of the water and up on the trailer.
Enjoy the boat it is ok a little water and keep an eye on repair patch.
So true. Most CB boats I've been aboard, if not all, have some rattling, but allowing for too much slop can also mean the CB doesn't stay inline when under sail and can not only affect the helm, but torque the pivot point. Be sure the pivot pin is as large as can be and still allow the CB to rotate freely.
-Will (Dragonfly)
I'm not sure its taking on a little water, we were on the lake for about 3 hours. We put in with a bone dry bilge, and when we came off the water and were sitting level we had about 3-3.5" of water in the bilge. The only place my son and I could find water intruding was at the CB bolt, you could literally feel the water flowing around your fingertip. I apologize, I should have included that with my original post about this issue.
Look at the boat and identify where the water level is on the boat when sitting still. Is it above or below the CB bolt. It should be below the bolt some distance. These small boats are supposed to sit pretty high in the water, the Sanibel 18 is listed to have a 1 foot draft when the center board is up. If you are lying deeper in the water then you have a lot of "stuff" on the boat that is contributing to you riding low in the water.
When you sail water is forced up into the CB well. (I had this happen on my Montgomery. It would splash into the cockpit and would drain out just as quickly. Occasionally one sailed with wet feet.) This will contribute to water splashing the bolt and you will see a little water entering the boat. Not much a quart or two, solved by a sponge and a small water scoop. If you have a lot (many gallons) then you need to inspect the boat for other ways the water is getting into the boat.
When you sail water is forced up into the CB well. (I had this happen on my Montgomery. It would splash into the cockpit and would drain out just as quickly. Occasionally one sailed with wet feet.) This will contribute to water splashing the bolt and you will see a little water entering the boat. Not much a quart or two, solved by a sponge and a small water scoop. If you have a lot (many gallons) then you need to inspect the boat for other ways the water is getting into the boat.
Yes you really should drop it and fix it now! Not seeing it personally though, you probably have lost a piece inside that is keeping CB aligned properly going down. once down the wobble effect will wear the holes bigger and bigger each time till Ca-plunk your CB will do two things!
1. It will go down and come up and put another hole in your bottom or
2. Same as 1 but it will break the rode/rope holding it and away it goes. Remember it's made of mettle it sinks and the chances of you finding it will be slim to not. So start practicing MOB technics to be able to find your lost centerboard that's on the lake or ocean floor. Capt. Rob IMO!
Ok gentlemen, I believe I'm on to something here. Dropped CB last night, removed all hardware and took a pic. Both holes are worn and the previous repair is beyond questionable. I also took a quick measurement and the CB bolt is 10" up from the bottom of the boat, which happens to draft 12" per researching the web, which would explain the flow of water versus splash of water. So by measuring alone my CB bolt is below the waterline, correct? I'll measure my true draft once I get her back on the water.
The trunk is only fiberglass, no plywood core. About 1/8" thick, I couldn't get any of my calipers in to get an accurate measurement.
In the meantime, the plan is to reinforce the trunk with marine ply glassed in, and upgrade hardware from 3/8 to 1/2. Also adding additional hardware to keep CB centered within trunk (there wasn't anything there to keep it centered and not moving laterally). Am I on the right track here? Or is adding the additional hardware sufficient enough to forego the reinforcement step. I'm leaning towards the go ahead and reinforce.
The trunk is only fiberglass, no plywood core. About 1/8" thick, I couldn't get any of my calipers in to get an accurate measurement.
In the meantime, the plan is to reinforce the trunk with marine ply glassed in, and upgrade hardware from 3/8 to 1/2. Also adding additional hardware to keep CB centered within trunk (there wasn't anything there to keep it centered and not moving laterally). Am I on the right track here? Or is adding the additional hardware sufficient enough to forego the reinforcement step. I'm leaning towards the go ahead and reinforce.
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Your discoveries are consistent with suspicions. Your plan sure sounds like it will address the issues you have discovered.
Hard to know with out seeing the boat in the water if the bolt location is wrong. Remember the bolt location is based on how far up the centerboard needs to rotate not just the height above the water line or the draft of the boat.
For certain I would look at reinforcing the centerboard holes. The Centerboard looks like it needs work. The cracks are places where water can get into the board. I wouuld dry it out and make the repairs to extend the life of the centerboard.
I like the use of the large fender washers. Nothing wrong with the rubber gaskets. Not sure how you will get the inner washer and gasket in place. Perhaps by taping it onto the centerboard when you put it up into place. Doubtful it will serve much purpose. I would use a bushing though the centerboard to run the bolt. The centerboard needs to rotate inside the centerboard well. Most often the bolt is used as a pin that allows the centerboard to rotate in place.
Hard to know with out seeing the boat in the water if the bolt location is wrong. Remember the bolt location is based on how far up the centerboard needs to rotate not just the height above the water line or the draft of the boat.
For certain I would look at reinforcing the centerboard holes. The Centerboard looks like it needs work. The cracks are places where water can get into the board. I wouuld dry it out and make the repairs to extend the life of the centerboard.
I like the use of the large fender washers. Nothing wrong with the rubber gaskets. Not sure how you will get the inner washer and gasket in place. Perhaps by taping it onto the centerboard when you put it up into place. Doubtful it will serve much purpose. I would use a bushing though the centerboard to run the bolt. The centerboard needs to rotate inside the centerboard well. Most often the bolt is used as a pin that allows the centerboard to rotate in place.
Reinforcing the CB trunk walls is a good idea. It looks like the CB has a bushing for the pivot bolt and there was a bushing on each side of the CB trunk.
Reducing the CB slapping is better done at the bottom of the trunk. CB slapping is an issue on Flying Scots. Here's a link on how to fix a Scot trunk: https://flyingscot.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Shimming-the-Flying-Scot-Centerboard.pdf.
It will be little different for your boat, but basically the same idea, reduce the movement at place where the CB leaves the boat. This reduces the lever arm force on the pivot bolt, the fulcrum is now at the hull and not the bolt. It may be possible and easier to use strips of indoor/outdoor carpet instead of thickened resin. If it doesn't work it will easier to remove.
@jssailem, hot glue my friend, hot glue . Yes the CB hole will get bored out for the new sleeve. The sleeve will extend out of the CB to apply pressure to the washers, and I've also got nylon washers to go between the board and the SS washers to allow the board a smooth pivot surface. I just need to measure the width of the trunk.
@dlochner, how about properly sized strips of HDPE (high density poly-ethylene plastic)? AKA cutting board material. Doesn't absorb water, swell, shrink, and is easily machine-able with common woodworking tools. Both of which I have an overabundance of.
If you have something that will stick to it, that would be a good choice. Not much sticks to HDPE.
I would just go with adding a little more glass to the thickness of your existing fiberglass. You typed that the trunk walls were about 1/8" thick. That seems thin to me. Build it out around the pivot hole down to and out into the bilge to about 3/8".
The pivot hole on the Mariner, my boat, is below the waterline. This is not a concern if properly addressed. It is a common spot for leaking, but usually a cup of water or so in a few hours. The best thing you can do for the CB slap is making the bolt diameter as large as you can, no play in the CB bolt hole, and using a rubber bushing on either side to hold the CB in the middle. Elmers white glue to hold the bushings/ washers in place while assembling, instead of hot glue, because the water will devolve it after you're done. Although, hot glue doesn't sound like it will be a problem.
It really sounds like you have this well in hand.
-Will (Dragonfly)
The pivot hole on the Mariner, my boat, is below the waterline. This is not a concern if properly addressed. It is a common spot for leaking, but usually a cup of water or so in a few hours. The best thing you can do for the CB slap is making the bolt diameter as large as you can, no play in the CB bolt hole, and using a rubber bushing on either side to hold the CB in the middle. Elmers white glue to hold the bushings/ washers in place while assembling, instead of hot glue, because the water will devolve it after you're done. Although, hot glue doesn't sound like it will be a problem.
It really sounds like you have this well in hand.
-Will (Dragonfly)