New Hyde Sails... How they Fit

Aug 22, 2017
41
Catalina 22 Rapel Lake
This is how my 150 hank on Genoa looks on the boat, without furler, it look like your jig, with plenty space for the furler, so I think your genoa is too long, just take my two cents as a junior sailor please!!
20170902_181211.jpg
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
In the 2016 C-22 Nationals the 3rd place boat in the Gold Fleet used the same Harken furler I use on one of my jib set ups without a forestay, just a luff wire on the genoa was used.

AREA 51 201.jpg


AREA 51 202.jpg
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
In the 2016 C-22 Nationals the 3rd place boat in the Gold Fleet used the same Harken furler I use on one of my jib set ups without a forestay, just a luff wire on the genoa was used.
Maybe just bad timing of the shots, but I'm not wild about their sail trim.
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
Bad timing with my photos. I was crewing on another boat in the Gold Fleet. They are quite the accomplished crew.

Don
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Ah, look closely and you can see they just finished a tac and are still hauling on the sheet.
- Will (Dragonfly)
I don’t think so. That’s not what a Genoa looks like when it’s on its way to final trim (back winded at the luff), the wake behind them is straight, and the clew looks very close to being in it’s upwind position.

I guess that they just got hit with a big lefty.
 
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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
@CaptDon01 , the reason I'm not using the luff wire in place of the forestay is that you have to take the mast down to change headsails. For Racers that is fine, and if I ever race I can sill do that without modification to the Rig. Otherwise, it would be nice to furl and drop the class jib and hoist the Genoa on light days with just a few clicks of snap shackles in 5 minutes.
 
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Sep 15, 2016
790
Catalina 22 Minnesota
@CaptDon01 , the reason I'm not using the luff wire in place of the forestay is that you have to take the mast down to change headsails.
Sort of. If your not sailing yet and want to change headsails with no main up technically the lowers will still keep the mast up just fine while you lower the furled sail. You could then hoist the new sail and tighten the halyard and backstay again to get the rake you wanted. However I don't think I would try it with the main up and while underway.

On a different note with the forestay in place does your sail furl without rubbing the stay? Seems like the clearance would be a bit tight.
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Sort of. If your not sailing yet and want to change headsails with no main up technically the lowers will still keep the mast up just fine while you lower the furled sail. You could then hoist the new sail and tighten the halyard and backstay again to get the rake you wanted. However I don't think I would try it with the main up and while underway.

On a different note with the forestay in place does your sail furl without rubbing the stay? Seems like the clearance would be a bit tight.
The situation you are describing is predicated on hoisting the wire luff sail on the Jib halyard. I'm pretty sure, @CaptDon01 will correct me if I'm wrong, that he sails with headsail wire luff attached to the forestay pin... so there is no way to change it unless you drop the mast. I don't think I could trust that wire to act as a forestay if it is only run up and tightened by the jib halyard. Too many pivot points and rope stretch involved between the top sheave and wherever your secure that halyard.
For clearance on furling the sail, see the pic of the class jib. That stainless tang on the upper swivel keeps about a 4 inch stand-off from the forestay and it works perfectly as long as the luff is tensioned well. For the Genoas I have had no such luck since my luff on each sail may be too long, plus I have added a halyard retained 6 inches below the masthead which shortens my hoist even more.
This weekend I am going to try deleting the forestay and pinning the swivel to the masthead. Pretty sure they will fly that way. I guess that means if its a light day it better stay light all day, LOL. Yes, I can partially furl the sail to reduce sail area but these foil-less furlers and wire luff sails are not designed for that. That's why, somewhere over the rainbow, I'll have a cutter rig.
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
Luke,

I've sailed C-22's for quite a few years, started with our first C-22 over 30 years ago, so I would say I have a bit of C-22 experience. I've sailed C-22's with a 150, and I've sailed C-22's with a jib. Gotta say that for the past probably 7 years, I've sailed 99.9% of the time with just my jib, (I have hoisted my drifter maybe half a dozen times over the years). I have two jibs, one hank on jib, and one set up with the Harken furler. I don't even own a 150 anymore, sold it years ago. I sail single handed 100% of the time and found the 150 was just too much work, and too limiting on visibility. Too many inexperienced sailors and little kids on Mission Bay in rental boats, Sabots, kayaks and paddle boards and found myself in just too many potential collision situations when we lived in San Diego and kept our C-22 on Mission Bay.

Believe it or not, and contrary to popular opinion, a C-22 sails beautifully with a jib and a main with a lot less work, and far greater forward visibility for safety. I gladly will sail slightly slower and safer and not having to worry about running over that kid in a kayak. Heading out of Mission Bay with a 150 for a day out on the Pacific and the wind pipes up. Guarantee you won't be out on the foredeck changing the headsail.

Leave the genoa home and learn to sail proficiently with a jib, you'll learn more about sail and hull trim and you'll end up being a better sailor.

Don
 
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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Luke,

I've sailed C-22's for quite a few years, started with our first C-22 over 30 years ago, so I would say I have a bit of C-22 experience. ...

Don
Don, I wasn't questioning any of that... I just wanted to know if you pin the wire luff of the sail/swivel to the masthead forestay pin or do you raise it with the jib halyard?
 

greg_m

.
May 23, 2017
692
Catalina Jaguar 22 Simons Town
Luke,

Believe it or not, and contrary to popular opinion, a C-22 sails beautifully with a jib and a main with a lot less work, and far greater forward visibility for safety. I gladly will sail slightly slower and safer and not having to worry about running over that kid in a kayak. Heading out of Mission Bay with a 150 for a day out on the Pacific and the wind pipes up. Guarantee you won't be out on the foredeck changing the headsail.

Leave the genoa home and learn to sail proficiently with a jib, you'll learn more about sail and hull trim and you'll end up being a better sailor.

Don
Thanks to all for this discussion... I've been looking at sails from a local manufacturer who can make sails to C22 spec. The info on the 150 is good because in my sailing area there are very seldom days where there is no wind to light wind and before you know it you got 20+ knots blowing it's way towards you across the bay = I like the info on just the jib sail.

One thing that has come up though was loose footed main or bolt rope main. On the L26 we had bolt rope main. So asking for input from guys with experience is a no brainer for me! What would you go with if you had to buy a new main sail?
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
Don, I wasn't questioning any of that... I just wanted to know if you pin the wire luff of the sail/swivel to the masthead forestay pin or do you raise it with the jib halyard?
Luke, when I use my furling jib, the halyard is only used with my factory mast raising system, and when raising the UV sock for the sail at the end of the day. There is no heavy UV panels on my sail so it still retains better performance because the sail is not hampered by the additional material on the foot and the leech, so for UV protection when the boat is sitting at the dock I hoist the jib sock for UV protection of the sail. The luff wire on the sail has a thimble made for this purpose and was installed on the luff of the sail by the Ullman loft in San Diego, this is a common headsail modification where the head and the tack of the sail is sewn to the furling thimbles on the luff wire. So the sail with the top swivel on the head, and the drum assembly on the tack are kept attached to the sail. It's easy to raise the mast because of the reduced weight and flexibility of the luff over traditional furlers. The total length of my jib with the furling gear turned out to be less than the length of the stock forestay. So I measured the length of the drum and the Johnson Quick Lever with the sail and the top swivel and concluded I needed a ~16" lanyard to make up the difference, which I fabricated out of 1/8" 1 X 19 cable with a nicro-press thimble on each end. The top of the lanyard is pinned to the masthead, and the bottom of the lanyard is pinned to the top swivel.

The genoa's came from the racers. When you buy a new C-22, they come with a mainsail and a jib. Many years ago it was the racers who started putting genoas on their C-22's. Racers want the maximum sail area allowed by the class rules. Luff foils are against class rules, so racers don't install furlers, until Tony showed up at the 2016 Nationals with a Harken small boat furler. It requires no luff foil because it uses a luff wire, so it meets the class rules. I would believe that the luff length on a standard class legal genoa being full hoisted would be too long once the drum assembly and the top swivel is installed. I'm sure Tony had his sail custom made just for his purpose. You need some additional space for adjusting the forestay, and not sure how Tony accomplished this on Area-51. If you look at the Sail Warehouse site, for a class legal hanked on genoa, the specs call for a luff length of 26.25'. If you look at the spec's for a furling genoa, both a 150 and a 135, the luff length is 25', where as a jib luff is 22.8' regardless if it's hanked on or set up with a luff tape to fit into the luff foil. So if you purchased a class legal hanked on genoa thinking you can just attach the Harken furling swivels, the length of the luff is now too long, and if won't fit. My forestay length is still adjustable with the use of the Johnson Quick Lever that I installed below the furling drum. This also serves to raise the tack of the sail for improved forward visibility. The Johnson Quick Lever and the furling drum assembly is almost the exact length of the lanyard I fabricated and have attached to my hanked on jib to improve the forward visibility.

Don
 
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Sep 15, 2016
790
Catalina 22 Minnesota
This is great info @CaptDon01 thanks for posting it. Sorry I was unaware that you pinned the swivel to the forestay point on the mast in place of the wire. I think I side with Luke on this one as changing sails on the water is impossible. Just makes me even moregreat full for my furler which uses hank on sails and the forestay! However now I have to measure my luff to see if it was shortened for my furler. Might be worth getting a standard stay for racing and getting a used racing headsail.
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
I guess I'm just different from all the other C-22 sailors. In my years sailing a C-22 I've only changed the headsail out on the water maybe a handful of times, and that was putting up my drifter when the wind died, or more than likely, I dropped the sails and motored. Even back in the old days many years ago when I carried a genoa, a jib, a storm jib, and a drifter, 99.99% of the time the headsail of choice was hanked on at the dock, and removed when I returned to the dock. Besides, I don't want all the clutter on the boat with all the headsail choices, (this is the point where the guys with the CDI furlers usually pipe in exclaiming the infinite adjustments their furlers provide them). Let's say it's a nice day and I hank on the genoa and go sailing. An unexpected storm comes up and I'm soon overpowered with the genoa. Sorry, I'm not going forward and changing out to the storm jib. I'm pulling the downhaul and dousing the sail. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the purist. So I just sail with a jib and enjoy the day following the KISS principal. Sail out, or sail in, or sail up, or sail down. Not the popular opinion, just what's worked for me after a few years on C-22's.

Don
 
Sep 15, 2016
790
Catalina 22 Minnesota
Ok so i have been puzzling this all though over the last few days as I have been putting away all my rigging for the winter and need something to occupy my time and it has led me to a question. If the wire luff replaces the forestay particularly for a racing environment how do you adjust the stay / luff tension to move the draft on the Jib? It it simply a matter of tensioning the backstay and if so wouldn't the increase rake on the mast adversely affect the draft / shape of the Main? I ask because I will be looking for a new headsail next year and I am trying to determine what will work best for the type of sailing I do. Thanks all for the help.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,732
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Adjusting the rake in a fractional rig would have that effect, not as much on a top rig. Overall, you are increasing the compression on the mast in either scenario (forestay/backstay tension), that will change thing for the main but I can't see one being better than another. It certainly is quicker, for a small crew, to do everything from the cockpit that can be done there.
- Will (Dragonfly)
I don't know why I'm answering this question, I don't know. Just my thoughts.
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
I can adjust the forestay length with the adjustment holes on the Johnson Quick Lever, (see the attached photo that shows the Johnson Quick Lever under the furling drum).
I'm not a racer, so I don't spend a lot of time "tuning" my rigging. :stir: I have simply followed the factory method for years, and it's seemed to work for me. :thumbup: I do have an adjustable backstay if I feel the need to tighten the forestay tension. I don't have my forward lowers sloppy loose like some of the racers do where they use the adjustable backstay to control mast rake. There is a difference in mast rake, and mast bend, and all the how and why reasons.
My opinion, (and I got lot's of them), if you want to be a serious racer, and unless you want to spend the money for a custom headsail made to your specifications, my advice would be to stick with a class legal standard hanked on genoa. Better yet, ask a racer. I've only seen one racing C-22 use a Harken small boat furler set-up, so there must be a reason why......

Don

HARKEN FURLER 203.jpg
 

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