New Cabin sole black water spots 2nd season. How do I fix?

Dec 2, 2017
9
Pearson 31-2 Milwaukee
Hi everyone. This is my first time on this forum and first time posting a question. Im hopeful someone can help. I've had my Pearson 31-2 for 2 seasons. The previous owner had replaced the teak/holly cabin sole right before selling her to me. It looked beautiful. However this season there started to appear black water marks which appear to have occurred because of moisture wicking through the underside. (See pics) This is occurring more so on those boards which are screwed down into a "Pan" which do not have direct access to the bilge. Those above the shallow bilge are starting to turn darker as well. It appears Im getting moisture under the boards and then it is trapped in there and is trying to escape through the wood. So my questions are:

1. Does anyone know if I can I refinish the veneer so I dont have the black marks or are they damaged beyond repair? ( I have them removed for the winter and are at my home awaiting an implementation of a solution)

2. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to avoid this problem in the future once they are repaired or replaced?

Please note the pic taken of the entire saloon that picture was taken in July of this year and the others taken at the end of the season. Lots of damage very quickly
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Thanks in advance for any and all comments.
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,523
Hunter 27_75-84 Sandusky Harbor Marina, Ohio
Wow! I have two questions:

1. Are you sure it is water? Are there other possible causes?

2. Where is the water coming from? Leaks in or around the overhead are very hard to trace because the water can wander around behind a liner before dripping to the deck.

Good luck!
 
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HMT2

.
Mar 20, 2014
899
Hunter 31 828 Shoreacres, TX
Yes sir you can. Use a chemical stripper to get the existing finish off. Once it is clean and dry VERY lightly sand it by hand with like a 220 grit. I would then seal bottom, top and sides with epoxy as described in this video and then varnish as other videos in this series described. I did this on my boat a couple of years ago and I remain very pleased.

 
Dec 2, 2017
9
Pearson 31-2 Milwaukee
Thanks HMT2 for the reply. Doing this will remove the black spots? Or will the black spots disappear once it is stripped and thoroughly dried?
 
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Dec 2, 2017
9
Pearson 31-2 Milwaukee
Thanks for the reply David No she is out of the water and on the hard, covered and winterized.

I know we were getting some water in from a port light and there is always some water that finds it's way into the bilge. But it's not excessive. I re-bed the port light properly and that fixed the problem sometime around August. Im guessing there was some water trapped below the wood maybe since. There was also a few wet days where the cabin sole got wet and water could have gotten under it. But heck...It's a boat. If your using it and having some fun (ie not just fair weather -low wind "sailor") your going to get water below. So what Im searching for is what to do to make the boards look sweet again (if possible) and then what I can do to prevent the return of the black spots should water end up below.. Any thoughts?
 

HMT2

.
Mar 20, 2014
899
Hunter 31 828 Shoreacres, TX
Thanks HMT2 for the reply. Doing this will remove the black spots? Or will the black spots disappear once it is stripped and thoroughly dried?
In my experience the sanding will get rid of the black spots. There are some teak cleaners that you can use that might help if the sanding doesn't make them go away.
 

Bob J.

.
Apr 14, 2009
773
Sabre 28 NH
I put a new sole down end of fall & the weather wasn't going to cooperate to allow 4-5 coats of varnish. It was recommended I put 2 coats of epoxy over the sole to protect it.
I was also told to be sure to varnish it in the spring to protect it from sunlight coming in ports, hatches so it didn't turn the sole black. I had never heard of this before what do I know? Maybe it's not water turning the sole black.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,319
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I put a new sole down end of fall & the weather wasn't going to cooperate to allow 4-5 coats of varnish. It was recommended I put 2 coats of epoxy over the sole to protect it.
I was also told to be sure to varnish it in the spring to protect it from sunlight coming in ports, hatches so it didn't turn the sole black. I had never heard of this before what do I know? Maybe it's not water turning the sole black.
The issue with epoxy and sunlight is well known. Epoxy is very sensitive to UV and will turn cloudy and become brittle with exposure. Varnish with a UV protector will prevent this, however, any place where the varnish has failed the UV will penetrate and cause problems. The other issue is that epoxy won't breathe. If water gets under the finish it will cause the finish to lift.

In my experience, water will usually cause the varnish to turn whitish and then flake off. The sole on my boat has similar blacken areas that showed up after an unfortunate incident with propylene glycol antifreeze. The change was not immediate, it took a couple of seasons to show up.

In my experience the sanding will get rid of the black spots. There are some teak cleaners that you can use that might help if the sanding doesn't make them go away.
Be careful if you sand the soul. The veneer is extremely thin, maybe as thin as 1/32 of an inch. It is easy to sand through it.
 
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Sep 6, 2010
51
Tartan 40 Mattapoisett, MA
here is great article on trying to save your Sole! http://www.dakotamarine.com/blog-article-saving-your-sole.html
they advise against chemical strippers and give the reason that it is very difficult to remove the stripper from the grain.
I think you can definitely make it better. It will take some time, mostly waiting! waiting for them to dry out, waiting for each step whether bleaching and more drying or waiting between coats. They recommend removing existing finish with a heat gun and a scraper. It's a good article.

For yours, my guess is they plopped in that new sole in without completely sealing it or enough coats of varnish. For those stains to appear after only a couple years is surprising. like the wood was sitting in water the whole time. Or it could have had high moisture content to begin with. the time in replacing the sole is really in the prep and finish. if this was all new plywood, that was not done well.

I'm replacing the sole in the main salon of my Tartan 40 right now as well. Mine didn't come out as easily as yours!
 
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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
After you remove the old varnish try not to sand at all if you can avoid it. As someone mentioned above, the veneer is VERY thin. Someone also mentioned teak wash, which is good... but there are better (and cheaper) alternatives. If you have any woodworking store or lumberyard that sells fine hardwoods (not HD or Lowes) they should carry various wood cleaners specifically made to get mold/mildew stains (fungus) and other things out of the wood grain. I believe the base chemical of these is typically oxalic acid but there may be other products/formulas that work well. Also, Amazon;
https://www.amazon.com/Oxalic-Acid-Bleaching-Wood-Net/dp/B001F2US4U
 
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Dec 2, 2017
9
Pearson 31-2 Milwaukee
here is great article on trying to save your Sole! http://www.dakotamarine.com/blog-article-saving-your-sole.html
they advise against chemical strippers and give the reason that it is very difficult to remove the stripper from the grain.
I think you can definitely make it better. It will take some time, mostly waiting! waiting for them to dry out, waiting for each step whether bleaching and more drying or waiting between coats. They recommend removing existing finish with a heat gun and a scraper. It's a good article.

For yours, my guess is they plopped in that new sole in without completely sealing it or enough coats of varnish. For those stains to appear after only a couple years is surprising. like the wood was sitting in water the whole time. Or it could have had high moisture content to begin with. the time in replacing the sole is really in the prep and finish. if this was all new plywood, that was not done well.

I'm replacing the sole in the main salon of my Tartan 40 right now as well. Mine didn't come out as easily as yours!
Thank SloopDogg.. That was an excellent article. Just what I needed. I guess Ill document as I go over the winter and repost for those interested.
 
Dec 2, 2017
9
Pearson 31-2 Milwaukee
After you remove the old varnish try not to sand at all if you can avoid it. As someone mentioned above, the veneer is VERY thin. Someone also mentioned teak wash, which is good... but there are better (and cheaper) alternatives. If you have any woodworking store or lumberyard that sells fine hardwoods (not HD or Lowes) they should carry various wood cleaners specifically made to get mold/mildew stains (fungus) and other things out of the wood grain. I believe the base chemical of these is typically oxalic acid but there may be other products/formulas that work well. Also, Amazon;
https://www.amazon.com/Oxalic-Acid-Bleaching-Wood-Net/dp/B001F2US4U
Cloud diver. THANKS! Hopefully no sanding is needed after she drys out
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
That's a great looking boat by the way....
I want to second @HMT2 's comment. Use a chemical stripper (Jasco from H-D) because scraping and sanding runs too much of a risk of damaging the thin veneer of teak. Any excess stripper will not harm the wood and you can wash it off. Any sanding at all should only be by hand with 220 like HMT2 said.
I've done quite a bit of epoxy sealing and varnishing of teak on my own boat and others, here is a few tips;
1. You don't need the 'special clear' epoxy hardener from WEST. Its REALLY expensive and not worth it, especially for interior cabin soles. I used regular 205 fast hardener that has an amber color when mixed, it goes on in such a thin coat that your eye will never pick it up. Even the regular slow hardener is almost as clear as the 'special clear'. Either one you are fine. A one quart kit of System 3 epoxy off Amazon is probably the cheapest option.
2. Do two coats of epoxy and hot coat them (the second coat goes on after the first has kicked and firmed up, gives a chemical bond and no sanding between coats). The reason for this is that the first coat will soak into the wood and some grain will be exposed. The second coat should leave and almost glass surface, but don't worry if its not perfect.
3. After two coats of epoxy have cured fully (and let them harden up for 48 hours), then sand with 150. Don't use 80, its too much. You should have a dull, but smooth finish. An orbital sander is fine, but a block by hand is better.
4. Slightly over drill all of the screw holes. Tape them off on the bottom and fully fill them with epoxy. You can re-drill them in the spring, but you will have epoxy potted screw holes that won't let water soak into the plywood. Also, having the holes filled avoids issues when varnishing.
5. I use Epiphanes varnish, it has really good UV inhibitors. You can use high gloss or satin, your choice. I would actually lean toward satin on a cabin sole, but you can't deny how good gloss looks on teak and holly. Either way, applying with foam brushes works wonders. Try to make sure the area you varnish in is a dust free as possible. Because you sealed with epoxy the varnish will soak into the wood so there is no need to cut it with thinner, go full viscosity (just stir it really well).
6. Varnish can be hot-coated... read the label. This avoids sanding. Keep in mind that most varnishes take a REALLY long time to fully cure. If you try to sand to early it will just gum up your sand paper. I like to hot coat 2 to 3 coats at a time, then let it cure for several days before sanding, depending on temp and humidity levels. If I was doing those cabin soles I would be shooting for 6 coats total, hot coat 3 layers and let cure for a week. Sand with 120 by hand with a block to work any imperfections. Hot coat 2 layers, cure for a week and block sand with 120 or 150, then do the final top coat.
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
I just made a work bench from an 8 foot slab of butcher block counter top. I used the method I just wrote about above. I will try to post pics when I get home. I have been letting cure for the last month for I mount my bench vise to it. yes, having a high gloss varnish on a heavy duty work bench is kinda crazy, but I had epoxy sealed the bench and Epiphanes varnish is what I had on hand...
Varnish stays soft for a long time. Take your time on the cabin sole, but letting the finished panels cure for at least two months before they get foot traffic would be a good idea.
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
I don't use epoxy under varnish so I can't help there. Certainly looks like moisture stains but I can't see it coming through the plywood from below. At any rate, be sure the boat is well ventilated, in use and off season.

The best way to get a long lasting finish on your sole pieces, is to roll and tip them. Use 4 or 6" foam rollers and disposable pans and foam brushes to tip the varnish off.

There's no way I can get as even a coating just brushing on varnish, and I've been doing a long time. Simply roll and tip your thinned coats and all full strength coats. I put on 2 or 3 thinned coats with no sanding. Then I sand between coats, sometimes just use an abrasive pad (if my base is nice and flat).

These Teak and Holly solid cabin soles were sanded and finished with 6 or 7 coats of regular gloss spar varnish in the winter of 2000. They have lost their gloss from wear, but the coating is still full and protecting the wood. The boats been heavily used in season by a family of four and two dogs.

949 Saloon aft 2 (1 of 1).jpg
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
I don't use epoxy under varnish so I can't help there...
There's no way I can get as even a coating just brushing on varnish, and I've been doing a long time...
The reason you can't get an even coat is because you haven't tried sealing with epoxy. If you plan on refinishing that sole again after the 17 plus years you got out of the last job, you should give an epoxy seal a try. That's why I use foam brushes, the epoxy creates a strong and flat surface that is sanded smooth and has filled the grain. I don't need to thin the varnish at all. I hope you decide to give it a try, it will be much less work. Nothing at all wrong with your method, its just more labor intensive. The benefit to an epoxy seal goes beyond just saving labor up front, it ensures truly water tight woodwork but also saves greatly on time in applying maintenance coats in the future.
 
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Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Looks like black teak mildew trapped under the varnish. Varnish is NOT waterproof, epoxy is. You will need to get that varnish off and kill/bleach the mildew. When good and dry seal both sides and all edges with at least two coats of epoxy. I am partial to MAS epoxy because it is clear and has no wax blush. You can fine sand between coats to get a nice finish but I would consider using a grit additive on a sole board for slip protection. Finish with spar varnish for UV protection. A good resource for teak ply finishing is Chesapeake Light Craft - these guys have a lot of experience, and as you can see, their epoxy seal process prevents damage and staining:
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,399
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Am I the only one that finds a varnished floor dangerous? Safety is more important than a warm glow. My floor has always been covered with well-secured carpet (larger boats--not the F-24 in my avitar, which has a textured FRP sole).

And it still looked nice when I sold it, which was nice.
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
The reason you can't get an even coat is because you haven't tried sealing with epoxy. If you plan on refinishing that sole again after the 17 plus years you got out of the last job, you should give an epoxy seal a try. That's why I use foam brushes, the epoxy creates a strong and flat surface that is sanded smooth and has filled the grain. I don't need to thin the varnish at all. I hope you decide to give it a try, it will be much less work. Nothing at all wrong with your method, its just more labor intensive. The benefit to an epoxy seal goes beyond just saving labor up front, it ensures truly water tight woodwork but also saves greatly on time in applying maintenance coats in the future.
Thanks, epoxy is great, some use it under brightwork, some don't. For a sealer when I want the fastest fill, I like a typical wood sealer like Interlux Interprime wood sealer. Fast drying, you can put on a few coats a day without sanding, to get a fast build.

I did some experiments with old exterior brightwork(50+ years), using a filler stain and sealers. Filler stains are particularly helpful in cases where the brightwork is water stained.

Beyond sanding and the correct use of Oxalic acid, black water stains are hard to remove.

In the case of the moisture damaged sole boards above, little sanding can be done(veneer thickness). It looks to me that moisture was trapped below the coating (epoxy?) which resulted in such a large water stain. It will be more difficult to remove the epoxy layer on the OP sole boards, to remove the stain.

Whatever results the OP may get, filler stain may help even out the stains. Plus it is a tremendous wood sealer so saves time. These samples below, with just 2 coats of full strength varnish applied, show how well filler stains and sealer stains work. The sample below is all one 56 year outdoor exposed brightwork plank-ripped in half.

Brightwork- Sunlight full (1 of 1).jpg

Like you say, there are several 'right' ways to do this. My methods with brightwork, especially that which is exposed to the elements, are using coatings that go on easily - and come off easily. Varnish alone has been used to seal against moisture and preserve brightwork for centuries. Epoxy has it's place as well but I don't use it under brightwork (many do with great results!).

Back to roll and tip: I wooded(stripped off old failing coating) these coamings after 10 years of typical varnish maintenance (lightly sand and 1 coat varnish applied in spring).

After applying a filler stain(brushed on thick, rubbed off), I rolled(and tipped) on 3 wood Interlux sealer coats, sanded and applied - roll and tipped method - 5 coats of varnish(I would have added more but ran out of time), sanding lightly between coats.

Roll and tip ensured a uniform flat coating which speeds my application.

After 56 seasons of use, they look pretty good thanks to varnish.
Cockpit coamings.jpg