If you're going to go for the expense of a Wakespeed then you ought to also consider the Arco Zeus voltage regulator. They developed a very user friendly programming app for it that neither Balmar or Wakespeed offer.
Mid LiFePO4 Cruisers?
- Thread starter SoSound
- Start date
How long have they been making that unit? I don't recall it being available when I was looking, the Wakespeed 500 was "it"....
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A couple of new relevant articles from MaineSail recently posted.
The New ARCO Zeus External Alternator Regulator
ARCO Zeus High Energy External Regulator Site Plug: We have teamed up with our friends at The Yacht Rigger to offer the Zeus to our readers.Andre, the owner,was part of the advisory board for this new regulator! Click the link below to pre-order.
marinehowto.com
Critical LiFePo4 Data You Need!
Not all LifePo4 batteries are created equally. This article will show you why it is critical to know what's going on inside the box!
marinehowto.com
Maine's "Critical Lifepo4 Data arcticle is why I an not a fan of Battle Born or Dakota. Neither of them have any way to see what is going on inside. I also had a battery show up with a big imbalance as @Maine Sail ilustrated which would only charge to 13.8v out of the box. Mine did not ever go over the 3.65v threashold but with 350mv imbalance, the highest cell would shut down as it should at 3.65v and the lowest one was only 3.32v. Because I had an unlocked Bluetooth connection, I was able to balance out the cells which increased the tested capacity from 445Ah when I got it to 480Ah after balancing.A couple of new relevant articles from MaineSail recently posted.
The New ARCO Zeus External Alternator Regulator
ARCO Zeus High Energy External Regulator Site Plug: We have teamed up with our friends at The Yacht Rigger to offer the Zeus to our readers.Andre, the owner,was part of the advisory board for this new regulator! Click the link below to pre-order.marinehowto.com
Critical LiFePo4 Data You Need!
Not all LifePo4 batteries are created equally. This article will show you why it is critical to know what's going on inside the box!marinehowto.com
There’s a lot to like about it, especially an iOS app to actually program it with.
The FAQs (I hate FAQs) don’t make it very clear when and where the Zeus is compatible.
There are internally regulated… and externally regulated alternators…
Can I use it with my existing alternator? Yes…
Would I need to add the $200 Balmar external conversion kit to get my alternator to work with the Zeus? That would end up being nearly double the price of the Balmar 618 conversion kit with harness and temperature. I could probably find someone with an Android to help me program the Balmar.
The FAQs (I hate FAQs) don’t make it very clear when and where the Zeus is compatible.
There are internally regulated… and externally regulated alternators…
Can I use it with my existing alternator? Yes…
Would I need to add the $200 Balmar external conversion kit to get my alternator to work with the Zeus? That would end up being nearly double the price of the Balmar 618 conversion kit with harness and temperature. I could probably find someone with an Android to help me program the Balmar.
The Zeus, Wakespeed, and Balmar 618 all have one thing in common, they only work on externally regulated alternators. Regulators work by varying the field current to control the alternator's output. The alternator can't have 2 different controls trying to control it. In your initial post you said you have a Valeo alternator that is not externally regulated. Thus, in order to use any of these regulators it would be necessary to either to convert your existing regulator to external regulation or acquire a new externally regulated alternator.
It would also be worth considering changing the belt system to a serpentine belt system. The upper limit for a standard v-belt is about 100a of alternator output. Your current alternator is right at that limit. Changing to a serpentine belt will make the alternator more efficient and reduce belt wear due to slippage.
This thread is getting a little long, so it is hard to remember all the details, so I may be redundant. First, there is no cheap way to convert to LFP batteries. On the output side of the system, the conversion is pretty straightforward and simple, connect the battery to a Class T fuse and then to the system. It is the charging side that gets expensive and touchy. There are 2 charging routes, direct to LFP or to a LA battery and then charge the LA from the LA battery.
For direct to LFP battery charging you need:
- Externally regulated Alternator
- External regulator programable for LFP batteries and temperature compensation
- A method for charging the start battery (FET or DC to DC charger)
- A monitoring system
- A DC to DC charger
- A monitoring system
On first glance, it would seem the LA to LFP charging path would be simplest and easiest way to go, looks can be deceiving. The LA to LFP system sacrifices one of the biggest advantages of LFP batteries, a high charge acceptance rate, that's important because a high charge acceptance rate reduces engine runtime for battery charging. Consider, a 100ah AGM battery takes around 5.5 hours to reach 100% SOC from 50% SOC, it takes that long to restore just 50 ah of capacity to the battery at a .4C charge rate (40a). Apply that 40 a charging current to a 100ah LFP battery at 50% SOC and the battery will reach 100% in a little over an hour. Compare that to an externally regulated alternator with 100a out put and the battery is recharged in just 30 minutes, saving 5 hours of engine operation.
The apparent economy of the LA to LFP charging route begins to erode when the costs are considered. There are limited choices in DC to DC chargers, essentially Victron, Mastervolt, and Sterling. For any of these products expect to pay around $700-800 to achieve 50a DC to DC charging. It is possible to buy smaller less expensive DC-DC chargers, however, that will increase charging time. Depending on the alternator, it may not be able to supply adequate current for enough time to really justify the cost of a large DC-DC charger. The ~&500 difference between a Victron 18a DC-DC charger (adequate for LFP to LA charging) and a higher capacity charger, that $500 could be better spent on a new regulator and alternator.
There are 2 cases in which the LA to LFP route make some sense. If the boat is frequently at a marina and on shore power or as part of a multi-seaon upgrade plan. In the first case, LFP's benefit of lots of useable capacity in a small light package may be the goal. Weekend cruisers and racers would find this advantageous. In the second case, those of us on more limited budgets may find it easier to finance and to sell the conversion to the family's CFO.
This is exactly my goal, all of these are my priorities. Sorry about the detour on the Zeus.
I have started making a list options to purchase for my upgrade. It won’t be a major upgrade, it might take place over two years…
[Edit, below]
My alternator is already driven by a serpentine belt.
I've created a list of three options, by increase in my existing battery capacity:
(additional cables, fuses, etc. are NOT included)
100% Increase to ~200 Ah;
| 200% Increase to ~300 Ah
| > 300% Increase to 600 Ah
|
I am leaning toward the middle option.
I think we fit into the weekend cruiser category. We sometimes run a string of several weekends into multiple weeks at a time, but it's all regional and we are never more than a day away from a marina if we want one. I'm not sure that we would ever justify having 600 Ah of capacity on this boat, we certainly don't need that much now, and we do not plan on adding a TV or coffee maker.
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The detour to the Zeus is perfectly appropriate. The regulator is a key part of the system. While I don't doubt that Wakespeed or Zeus are more efficient and better regulators, what I don't know is how much better? Do we get significantly faster charging? Longer life for the batteries, i.e., more cycles? Will alternators last longer? I haven't seen any quantifiable data to show Wakespeed or Zeus yield significantly better performance to justify the additional expense over a Balmar 618. It may be out there, I just haven't seen it.
If it helps, the current batteries should dictate what gets replaced when. If the current batteries have a year or more life left in them, then changing the system parts that are agnostic to battery chemistry might be the first to replace, specifically, the shore power charger, the DC-DC charger, and add the serpentine belts for the alternator and a monitoring system. This will set you back somewhere between $1K to 1.5K.
I think I can add one more case for the less expensive LA to LFP DC-DC.
If the existing alternator is only capable of roughly 50A of continuous output and is deemed adequate. The new Orion XS 50A will list for $445 and may be close to the max continuous output of the Valeo. If 50A isn’t enough in the long run then it’s a tough call on whether it’s worth it, or just get the cheaper 18A Orion that you will probably need anyway to charge the LA from the LFP when you go to external regulation.
One factor that has not been discussed is the ultimate size of the new LFP bank. The larger the bank, the less sense it makes to use the LA to LFP charging system.
Two of the major advantages of the Zeus (or WS) are the programmable output curves based on RPM, and the shunt based control. With the programmable output, you can set little charging at low RPM, max charging at mid RPM , and reduced charging at high RPM to prevent overloading the engine. The Zeus has a “Generator mode” designed for when the engine is not being used for propulsion, that will apply full field at the selected RPM.
With the shunt controls, you can limit the maximum charge if required. So if your solar can generate 100A and your alternator 200A, but you want to keep the charge rate under 250A you can do that. It also allows charge termination to be based on current. They can be controlled by a Victron GX device, or some batteries with external comms.
Those are all great features, however they introduce a whole new level of complexity to a system of which many have only a rudimentary grasp and for the vast majority of us who are weekend sailors with occasional short cruises, they may be overkill. For those who measure their cruising time in weeks and not years how much benefit, i.e., how much money do we save by having the more complex system? I haven't seen any numbers that would convince me to upgrade to a Zeus.
The Zeus is amazing and far easier to program than a Wakespeed. It's temp protection for the alt also works really really well. You can make a Balmar work I did for 12 years, but not the way a Wakespeed or Zeus do...I swapped out my Balmar for a Wakespeed and it was a night and day difference...
A couple of thoughts, Epoch batteries are certainly popular at the moment. One shortcoming is the low Max discharge rate is only 200a, a Similar sized Kilovault battery has a max discharge rate of 300a. Small difference but could be crucial if needed to start the engine or run an anchor windlass. List prices are about the same, AltE store often has sales. AltE also has about 20 years experience with off grid applications and copies amounts of information on their website.
The Basin-Green batteries are fairly new to the US market, we have yet to see how stable a company they are. Also, perhaps more importantly there is not much information on their website about the app. The Kilovault app has access to individual cell readings, important to understand what's going on inside the battery. I believe the Epoch app also shows this information, but I can' t be certain. See MaineSail's latest article on LFP batteries on MarineHowTo.com to learn why this is important.
If you are going the LFP to LA The Orion 18a charger will be more than adequate, it will charge at greater than .2C for a Group 24 or 27 battery and just under .2C for a Group 31. Start batteries do not need much to charge them as they are seldom deeply discharged.
Be certain to measure the battery space to ensure you have enough room for everything. What will you use for shore power charging?
My only recommendation would be against the Orion 12-12/30 in favor of the Orion XS 50A. I have two of the Orion 30A you will find the following shortcomings.
1. Heat. The units will get upward of 165°F even in a roomy and well ventilated area (Which we have).
2. Derate. When hot, my units would only produce 22A. I did add three 40mm fans above the heat sink and this brought the output back to 30A, so there is a workaround here.
3. Efficiency. At 30A out, the input required is just under 40A. I calculated 81% efficiency.
4. Voltage sensing. Although “Smart”, these units do not participate in the ve.smart network, so they cannot use the voltage from the SmartShunt or BMV712. This means they will not correct for voltage drop like the MPPTs.
The Orion XS corrects all these issues. It is 98% efficient, doesn’t produce much heat and doesn’t derate as rapidly. It can also join Bluetooth ve.smart or connect via ve.direct.