Mid LiFePO4 Cruisers?

[jssailem]

While I recognize the value of LiFePO4 battery life and the increased battery capacity performance. From a cost benefits perspective total cost of getting said performance should be compared to the total cost of available performance using current systems on the boat.

For storage, Seattle based users can acquire a Dyno deep cycle FLA battery from the manufacturer/distributor that fits in a Group27 foot print, weighing 65lbs and supplies 135 Ahrs for $176 USD. The batteries are said to have a life cycle of 700 charge cycles. My experience was 5 seasons useful life before I replaced them. I did not wait till they died. I changed them out when I felt the capacity had dropped to a point that I felt uncomfortable. I have since installed a better SOC data display system. It is relevant to note that the system I purchased in 2015 and installed is designed around the FLA battery profile. While some of the system can be adapted to LiFePO4 I would have to invest money updated systems to optimize charging and monitoring.

 

[Stu Jackson]

- Or an external regulator kit for Valeo 120 A alternator
Balmar ARS-5 $410
Balmar ARS-618 $535

In addition to Dave's #39 about Bluetooth programming, here are the differences between the 5 and 618 (same differences back then in features 612 = 618)
Differences between Balmar MC-614 and ARS-5 Regulators 101

http://forums.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=160744&#post1102540
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=1053410&highlight=ars-5

If these links don't work, do an advanced search on ARS-5 by Maine Sail.

 

[SoSound]

Responding in between cooking tasks and watching the bird in the oven, so short answers to some of the questions.

The problem with ACRs and FET based battery isolators is the matching the charging profile. These devices work well when the two banks have the same charging voltages. The charging voltages for LFP and LA batteries are different enough that one of the banks will not be charged properly when an ACR or FET is used to isolate the banks. Thus, a Battery to Battery or DC-DC charger or separate alternators for the house and start/reserve banks are the only viable options. Of the two, the DC-DC charger is the easier and cheaper alternative. The size of the charger depends on whether the house or start/reserve bank is receiving the charge current, if the smaller bank is receiving the alternator's current, then a smaller DC-DC charger is appropriate.

Don't even consider the ARS-5. Once you try to program the ARS-5 with magnetic reed switches, you will regret not purchasing a 618 and the bluetooth module. There is an article on MarineHowTo.com on programming the 614, the process is basically the same for the ARS-5. Without the BT module the 618 is programmed the same way as the 614.

Back to the turkey.

Don't worry about long replies. This is not going to get done in a week, it took me three weeks to try to get my head around the info that everyone provided in the first round. We can come back to details later, if necessary.
I listed the ARS-5 because it's still available and would accomplish the goal of externally regulating the Valeo alternator. The 618 will also work with isolators, it's just irritating to have to pay for the additional components just to have the capability to program the ARS-618. The Victron MPPT was my first charge upgrade, and I got spoiled immediately by the built-in Bluetooth and App, that's one reason that I would add the Victron Smart Shunt, if I have to pay to program the ARS-618, then I might use the Balmar shunt and monitor instead.

Good luck with the turkey!

You can add an additional 300Ah Epoch next season no problem. Regarding the wiring, with two paralleled batteries you cannot improve on the diagonal wiring method with equal length interconnecting cables. To make it easier (and cheaper) next year when you upgrade be sure you have sufficient cable to reach the positive of one battery and the negative of the second one in their final configuration. I am using the diagonal method with three 315Ah LFP and it is working well. The cable resistance in my case is actually irrelevant compared to the internal resistance differences between the batteries.

I would not get the Orion Smart 12/12-30A. Either wait a month for the new Orion XS 12/12-50A, which is 98% efficient vs 81%, or move to external regulation direct to the LFP.

Orion XS 12/12-50A DC-DC Battery Charger - Victron Energy

Engineered from the ground up, the Orion XS redefines adaptive DC-DC charging. For use in dual battery systems charged with an (intelligent) alternator.

www.victronenergy.com

I like the reply regarding an additional LFP later on. The house bank will actually move closer to the existing charger and other components. If I need to get new cables, I expect to need them only for the start battery, if at all.

While I recognize the value of LiFePO4 battery life and the increased battery capacity performance. From a cost benefits perspective total cost of getting said performance should be compared to the total cost of available performance using current systems on the boat.

For storage, Seattle based users can acquire a Dyno deep cycle FLA battery from the manufacturer/distributor that fits in a Group27 foot print, weighing 65lbs and supplies 135 Ahrs for $176 USD. The batteries are said to have a life cycle of 700 charge cycles. My experience was 5 seasons useful life before I replaced them. I did not wait till they died. I changed them out when I felt the capacity had dropped to a point that I felt uncomfortable. I have since installed a better SOC data display system. It is relevant to note that the system I purchased in 2015 and installed is designed around the FLA battery profile. While some of the system can be adapted to LiFePO4 I would have to invest money updated systems to optimize charging and monitoring.

If I end up NOT installing LFPs, then I will definitely be looking that a couple Dyno FLAs when I need to replace the current pair. But in 10 years of owning our boat, this is the third set of FLA house batteries. Both replacement sets were purchased with limited options WRT availability and time constraints. At least I'm doing some research in advance this time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But I have already spent $800 on two sets of FLA replacements. I now have the option of spending $800 on a house bank that should both seriously increase my usable Ah and last much longer. If I start applying some of the metrics discussed in @Maine Sail 's Educated Consumer article I then I really start seeing a decrease in value for the system that I currently have.

Another point of the original post was to say that two of the upgrades that I've installed since 2014 already have the capability to select a pre-programmed LiFePO4 charging profile, or to create a custom profile instead. In its most basic form, I might not need too many other components to make the new battery technology functional in my boat.

 

[SoSound]

In addition to Dave's #39 about Bluetooth programming, here are the differences between the 5 and 618 (same differences back then in features 612 = 618)
Differences between Balmar MC-614 and ARS-5 Regulators 101

http://forums.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=160744&#post1102540
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=1053410&highlight=ars-5

If these links don't work do an advanced search on ARS-5 by Maine Sail.

Link problems, I'll do a search. I did find at least one comparison chart which the listed feature and compatibility differences between the ARS-5 and the ARS-618.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Please take the time to read the differences between these two regulators in #42. What you mention are NOT trhe really important differences.

I listed the ARS-5 because it's still available and would accomplish the goal of externally regulating the Valeo alternator. The 618 will also work with isolators, it's just irritating to have to pay for the additional components just to have the capability to program the ARS-618.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Quick summary by Maine Sail from one of the ARS-5 search results:

Either the ARS-5 or MC-614 (what I use) will work. I prefer the MC-614 due to its dedicated sense wire and a few more features but the ARS-5 is not bad. For the $30.00 difference I prefer the MC-614...

The dedicated sense wire alone is worth its weight in gold. Please go for the better regulator.

 

[Hayden Watson]

...
The charging voltages for LFP and LA batteries are different enough that one of the banks will not be charged properly when an ACR or FET is used to isolate the banks. ...

I often hear this said. Out of curiosity, what do you use for a charge profile for FLA and LFP? On my boat, I have always used 14.2v for my AGM's. I also use 14.2v for my LFP from the alternator. When On shore power, I charge to 13.8v but that does not go to the AGM which is only charge from the alternator.
Granted, I boat in the PNW, so our temperature range is very small, and I have never needed to worry about temperature compensation.

 

[Hayden Watson]

It looks like the Epoch 300Ah is a group 31 so it is a lot of power for the footprint. I see that you do not have the Basen 460Ah in your list of options. did you get a current price? the last time I saw one posted it was still $1,003 and prices of cells have recently dropped by 25% I bought my EVE 280K from the Docan Houston warehouse in May of 2021 and then are now $110. That means that my 560Ah build would now cost just over $1,000 and I could have all of the parts in a week.

 

[dlochner]

I often hear this said. Out of curiosity, what do you use for a charge profile for FLA and LFP? On my boat, I have always used 14.2v for my AGM's. I also use 14.2v for my LFP from the alternator. When On shore power, I charge to 13.8v but that does not go to the AGM which is only charge from the alternator.
Granted, I boat in the PNW, so our temperature range is very small, and I have never needed to worry about temperature compensation.

If the charging profiles are the same an ACR or FET based isolator should work fine. In the last iteration of my DC system I had Firefly house batteries and an FLA start/reserve batteries with an ACR. The Absorption for the FFs was 14.4 and the FLA 14.8. This did not make my FLAs happy. Like LFPs the FFs have a high charge acceptance rate as a result they kept the charging voltages low because of the low resistance as a result the FLAs rarely saw 14.4 v and never 14.8v. The FLA lasted about 18 months before it was toast.

Currently I have an AGM and LFP that share similar charging profiles but I have not really pushed them to their limits, so there is a little speculation here. This season I found the LFP battery seldom reached the absorption voltage and when it did, it was not for long before the battery was fully charged and dropped to a float charge or no charge. Had we relied on an ACR or FET, the start battery would not have been adequately charged. A DC to DC charger will apply the correct charging voltage once the input voltage is above a set point. This would not happen with an ACR or FET isolator.

The transition to LFP has been an ongoing project. All of the pieces were not fully functional until haul out time, so I don't have a lot of real life data or experience. Even with he limited experience we had with the LFP batteries, I am confident the DC-DC charger is a better solution.

 

[Hayden Watson]

If the charging profiles are the same an ACR or FET based isolator should work fine. In the last iteration of my DC system I had Firefly house batteries and an FLA start/reserve batteries with an ACR. The Absorption for the FFs was 14.4 and the FLA 14.8. This did not make my FLAs happy. Like LFPs the FFs have a high charge acceptance rate as a result they kept the charging voltages low because of the low resistance as a result the FLAs rarely saw 14.4 v and never 14.8v. The FLA lasted about 18 months before it was toast.

Currently I have an AGM and LFP that share similar charging profiles but I have not really pushed them to their limits, so there is a little speculation here. This season I found the LFP battery seldom reached the absorption voltage and when it did, it was not for long before the battery was fully charged and dropped to a float charge or no charge. Had we relied on an ACR or FET, the start battery would not have been adequately charged. A DC to DC charger will apply the correct charging voltage once the input voltage is above a set point. This would not happen with an ACR or FET isolator.

The transition to LFP has been an ongoing project. All of the pieces were not fully functional until haul out time, so I don't have a lot of real-life data or experience. Even with the limited experience we had with the LFP batteries; I am confident the DC-DC charger is a better solution.

My current start AGM has been charged only by the alternator since it was installed in 2008. It has never been connected it in any way to a 120v shore charger and that includes after 4-6 months layup over winter. It never gets discharge to any significant degree given and the engine starts every time with 10-seconds of glow plug and a moment on the starter. The LFP does sit at lower than set point voltage for most of the time running but that is at 13.3v to 13.4v which is still higher than the resting voltage of the AGM at 12.6v fully charged so even at that "low" voltage, it is getting the Ah used for starting the engine replaced. My absorption for the alternator is 14.2v for 30-minutes so as long as I motor for some amount of time when the LFP is nearly full, the AGM gets a full absorption charge. This will always happen every time I leave the dock because the LFP is full from shore charge and I have about a 30- run out to where I can normally start sailing.
This has worked well on this particular AGM for 15-years now, two of them being with the LFP. My experience indicates that at least in my usage, the start battery never has enough power drawn out to be at a "partial charge state" and as long as it gets occasional full voltage charging, it will not suffer harm.

 

[SoSound]

The dedicated sense wire alone is worth its weight in gold. Please go for the better regulator.

All of the worst decisions that I've ever made have two things in common. They were decisions made because I was being too "cheap" to pay for what would have been the proper choice. They also all cost me much more to correct than what I would have saved by being so obsessed with pinching every penny so tightly...

 

[SoSound]

It looks like the Epoch 300Ah is a group 31 so it is a lot of power for the footprint. I see that you do not have the Basen 460Ah in your list of options. did you get a current price? the last time I saw one posted it was still $1,003 and prices of cells have recently dropped by 25% I bought my EVE 280K from the Docan Houston warehouse in May of 2021 and then are now $110. That means that my 560Ah build would now cost just over $1,000 and I could have all of the parts in a week.

The BG 460Ah case is about 2.5 inches longer than either of the two spaces where I can put them without significant modifications. I was originally asking if this could be a relatively low cost "Drop In" (more or less) replacement project. That I could fit two 300 Ah Epoch batteries in my preferred location is what is keeping me going on this. If I couldn't fit the two 300 Ah into that space, then my decision would already have been made, I would be ordering two 160 Ah Basen Greens and limiting my questions to DC-DC chargers. With the possibility of stuffing 600 Ah into that space, I'm now asking which option makes more sense? What else will I need to do, to complete a proper installation?

I can get the two Basen Green 160 Ah batteries for just over $800. That's 2.5 times my current usable capacity, at just two times the cost of my current FLA house bank. If I only need a $257 Victron DC-DC charger to get things going, that definitely fits my original post cost criteria.

If 600 Ah of capacity costs $1800, plus $500 for an external regulator kit, and if communication and programming gateways cost another $700, now we're at five times the cost of the two FLA batteries that I have... that's starting to push the limits of what I'm willing to spend right now.

 

[dlochner]

Epoch batteries are the current darling of the internet in large part because Panbo and MaineSail gave them a favorable review. Rod is also an affiliate seller for Epoch. (he gets a cut if you buy through his website, MarineHowTo.com). Another LFP battery Rod and Panbo have recommended is Kilovault, which can be purchased at the Altestore.com. Alt-E has been in off grid power business for about 20 years.

I have not heard nor seen Basen Green until this thread. I would be hesitant to buy them or any LFP battery without more information about the company and the battery, preferably a teardown by a reputable source. There are ways to cut corners on LFP batteries by using lower quality FETs, mounting the FETs, poor BMS, inferior internal wiring, and so forth.

 

[Hayden Watson]

All of the worst decisions that I've ever made have two things in common. They were decisions made because I was being too "cheap" to pay for what would have been the proper choice. They also all cost me much more to correct than what I would have saved by being so obsessed with pinching every penny so tightly...

With that thought still on your tongue, I would be looking to the Wakespeed WS500 for a regulator. It is hands down the best on the market. For our little bitty engines, it has one feature that puts it into a different class from the others and that is White Space. You can program it to call for different max power output based on the engine rpms. I am currently working on the design of an alternator that is way too big for my 23-hp engine if I want to actually go anywhere because it with the prop will overload the engine at anything over about 1800-rpm. I will set the regulator to limit to 10% at idle and then ramp up to 100% by 1400rpms which is a good engine speed for charging at anchorage. From there, it will ramp down the output to somewhere around 50% at 2200rpm which is my max cruise revs. I will then ramp down to about 15% at WOT because the only reason I would ever be that that rev would be at a time when I needed all available power for the prop. With this program I am hoping to use an alternator with max output of 200A to 240A. All of those power settings will also be further controlled by the alternator temperature which will reduce the base settings as needed to stay within limits.

 

[Johann]

With that tought still on your tounge, I would be looking to the Wakespeed WS500 for a regulator. It is hands down the best on the market.

I think the new Arco Zeus will probably knock Wakespeed off its perch. I seems to do everything the Wakespeed does plus some. And its all programmed and controlled via Bluetooth. One special feature is a “Generator Mode” which when selected applies full field.

The Yacht Rigger

Empowering Your Marine Adventures

theyachtriggerzeus.com

 

[Hayden Watson]

Epoch batteries are the current darling of the internet in large part because Panbo and MaineSail gave them a favorable review. Rod is also an affiliate seller for Epoch. (he gets a cut if you buy through his website, MarineHowTo.com). Another LFP battery Rod and Panbo have recommended is Kilovault, which can be purchased at the Altestore.com. Alt-E has been in off grid power business for about 20 years.

I have not heard nor seen Basen Green until this thread. I would be hesitant to buy them or any LFP battery without more information about the company and the battery, preferably a tear down by a reputable source. There are ways to cut corners on LFP batteries by using lower quality FETs, mounting the FETs, poor BMS, inferior internal wiring, and so forth.

I agree with your sentiments completely and for those reasons, planned to build my own 1,120 Ah bank for my motorhome to replace the six 315Ah golf cart batteries it had. In the end, I purchased two of the BG 460Ah batteries in my motorhome. I made that purchase based on

• Favorable Tear-down reviews from Off-Grid Garage and Will Prowse and a couple of others based on build quality, tested capacity and features.
• Basen disclose that the cells inside are EVE which are my preferred cell in the prismatic field.
• They have high-capacity charge and discharge at 200A each way with a significant additional surge capacity up to 600A.
• They state which BMS is used. In my case it was the Jiabaida JBD Smart BMS 4S 200A with Bluetooth.
• All internal buss bars are welded pure copper formed to shape rather than bolted which can come loose inside the sealed case.
• The BMS is an unlocked smart BMS which allows monitoring and adjusting the parameters inside the sealed case.
• They have low temperature protection.
• Basen Green batteries are the drop-in outlet for Shenzhen Basen Technology co. ltd, which is one of the few cell suppliers I have found that have mostly positive reviews on the DIY LFP forums.

The ones I got were serial #4 and #5 and were not what I would consider to be perfect as delivered. There were a couple of details that were problematic such as the terminals being in a slight recess that allows for the ring terminals to need to be installed straight off the end of the case which did not work for my install. They also were not very well balanced as received. Because they are Smart, I was able to balance them which increased the tested capacity by 45Ah. I have talked to several others who have more recent batteries and it appears that these issues have been resolved for the most part.

 

[Hayden Watson]

I think the new Arco Zeus will probably knock Wakespeed off its perch. I seems to do everything the Wakespeed does plus some. And its all programmed and controlled via Bluetooth. One special feature is a “Generator Mode” which when selected applies full field.

The Yacht Rigger

Empowering Your Marine Adventures

theyachtriggerzeus.com

That looks pretty good and the add of Bluetooth is nice. That appears to be the only significant improvement that I can find with a quick review. It looks to be a bit more expensive.

 

[Johann]

That looks pretty good and the add of Bluetooth is nice. That appears to be the only significant improvement that I can find with a quick review. It looks to be a bit more expensive.

I have no experience with either, but I’ve read the WS can be a bear to program. It looks like the Zeus is more expensive, but it includes the wiring harness and two thermistors so I think that brings the installed cost within $50 or so. I’m only interested in the Zeus as a potential replacement for our 7700h Northern Lights 6kW. My idea would be a separate 48V 5.1kWh LFP with a dedicated 5kVA Multiplus, charged by a 6kW 48V alternator through the Zeus… significantly cheaper than a new NL, and no yearlong wait.

 

[Hayden Watson]

I have no experience with either, but I’ve read the WS can be a bear to program. It looks like the Zeus is more expensive, but it includes the wiring harness and two thermistors so I think that brings the installed cost within $50 or so. I’m only interested in the Zeus as a potential replacement for our 7700h Northern Lights 6kW. My idea would be a separate 48V 5.1kWh LFP with a dedicated 5kVA Multiplus, charged by a 6kW 48V alternator through the Zeus… significantly cheaper than a new NL, and no yearlong wait.

Sounds like a good way to go. Do you use the 48v for propluson or just house loads? If house, what do you have that uses 48v? Maxwell has come up with a nice new 48v windlass. Would you then use a 48v- 12v converter to run everything or a DC2DC charger to keep a small 12v battery charged?
My understanding is that some of the 48v alternators need to use 12v for the field wires. If you are also using the 48v alternator with propulsions to the prop, the white space feature which the Zeus also appears to have would be very useful. The phone app makes it easier. You motor at a given rpm and turn up the field until you start getting black smoke and then back it down 5%-10%.

 

[Johann]

Sounds like a good way to go. Do you use the 48v for propluson or just house loads?

Actually we are all 12V at the moment. In hindsight I should have switched to 24V or 48V when we started outfitting the boat, but we went 12V and with windlass, winch, Multiplus, and 945Ah of LFP its too late to change that. But if we do need to replace the Genset, it will be no kidding a replacement. 48V battery and new 5kVA Multiplus in same area as the genset was, and connected via the existing genset AC cables and breakers. Then replace the 80A Hitachi with 48V 6kW alternator and use the setup just like we use the genset today. Last year we had a few issues with the generator and I investigated replacements, but it’s running well now so…